to think there is something seriously wrong with our education system..

[TwinkleToes101]

when teachers are leaving in droves?

Just recently reading about record numbers of newly trained teachers giving up within 5 years (that was me 14 years ago), then on MN today partners having depression/breakdowns and all the posters who teach knew the person in question was a teacher...what the F is going so badly wrong with teaching??

I thought my reasons for leaving were personal: too little me time, too much low-level classroom disruption. Other postgrads I know left as I did because of work load. But don't other professions have high workloads/stresses?

Kids in lower sets and early years need specialist teachers too. Not some sort of Mums Army of kindly well-meaning types, but people who really know their stuff.

^This. Too often struggling students, particularly in primary, are have interventions provided by unqualified TAs who, in my experience of working in schools in deprived areas, sometimes have a low level of educational attainment themselves. I had one very lovely TA who was surprised to be told that the word "I" is always capitalised and another with extremely weak spelling - both were expected to deliver literacy interventions.

To be clear: I believe teachers should a/ be trained b/ have a competency in the area they teach.

But I am also suggesting for debate that a/ high level paper qualifications may not be a good predictor of a successful teacher that remains in the classroom, b/ recruitment drives should prioritise 'soft' skills that will help teachers cope with the job.

I had one very lovely TA who was surprised to be told that the word "I" is always capitalised and another with extremely weak spelling - both were expected to deliver literacy interventions.

That's appalling. The only TAs I know (3) are all degree qualified in education but they are leaving because they want to train as teachers. I think they are mad.

@brizzledrizzle

It is appalling. Both women were fantastic at pastoral care and anything creative - I don’t want to knock TAs - but they should not have been supporting children who were struggling with basic literacy. I now work in a school where all the TAs have degrees, but early literacy support should be provided by qualified teachers IMO.

noblegiraffe understood the brushing-off of TAs as the "mummy army" is something that winds me up is all. But I do agree with both the points being made here. Struggling children should not be farmed off to the inexperienced or underqualified. It happened to me as a new TA and I was beyond horrified to be given that task initially - on the other hand I had to learn sometime! and it turned out I was pretty good at it, but the lack of support for both me and the kids was not best practice.

I also have observed some truly underqualified teachers where my subject knowledge is far greater. It's embarrassing, really, for both of us. I worked with one teacher - a lovely soul - who was trying to teach French with no subject knowledge, not even basic pronunciation. She ended up rearranging her timetable to teach it on the days I was in her class.

From what I remember about teaching secondary science, common pupil misconceptions is something you learn through teacher training not through the degree. I'm not arguing for untrained teachers.

I mainly learn this on the job. The more you teach a topic the more the same mistakes are made.

In fact every day I see some bizarre Science. It is so fascinating the way some kids think.

A student teacher did tell my class that the surface of a puddle was at 200 degrees the other day. Luckily my class politely argued back.

I had to do an essay on common misconceptions for my PGCE but we focused on one topic (fractions) so it wasn’t very useful overall. I agree that it’s more something that you pick up on the job: when a kid has confused area and perimeter for the MILLIONTH time it tends to stick in your memory.

Yes but if you’re training people without science degrees you’d have to eschew that to actually teach them the science
Exactly. Teacher training is training you to teach, not giving you the subject knowledge.

I fear for the state of education to think of non subject specialists delivering pre-planned lessons, barely 2 lessons ahead of the students and without the academic ability or subject knowledge to stretch able children answer any question that isn't on their answer sheet. I know of some staff who are like that. The quality of education is poor.

recruitment drives should prioritise 'soft' skills that will help teachers cope with the job.

Ability to shrug off abuse?
Lack of social life so they won’t miss it when it’s gone?
Tolerance for an endless grind of low-level disruption and pointless paperwork?
Ability to survive on a few hours sleep?

Maybe the job should be made more tolerable instead.

Prioritising soft skills is not the answer.

Teachers should have much lower contact hours with students so that they can prepare each lesson better and get involved in more training and professional discussions with other teachers about curriculum etc.

Unfortunately there is no money for this and very few teachers.

Teacher training is training you to teach, not giving you the subject knowledge

It doesn't do either. What is does do is give students a few hints and tips and then throw them into the classroom and expect them to know how to do behaviour management alongside conflicting advice from numerous colleagues, how to plan the perfect lesson from day one and how to teach good or outstanding lessons at all times and pull them to pieces when they struggle.

The best teachers are those who are reflective about their teaching, can manage pupil behaviour and have extremely good communication skills. If you want to take what I've said, clip out a phrase what you want to attack and then exaggerate it noblegiraffe go ahead, have a ball.

No pupil benefits when their teacher is off sick. Seems to me it is priority to attract the right people into teaching and support them to stay. The mind boggles at what training budgets must be being wasted.

I have to be honest , I don't think many people are attrtacted to teaching who don't at least like people . Obviously we can all think of exceptions. But most teachers have pretty good soft skills : until put inot a classroom, under huge stress, in front of 30 hormonal teenagers/ needy small people and placed under constant scrutiny and changes of directives with frequent lack of support. It is the stress that makes teachers leave, and the workload. People with all the wonderful people skills in the world crumble.

The best teachers are those who are reflective about their teaching, can manage pupil behaviour and have extremely good communication skills.

How do they learn to manage pupil behaviour if nobody tells them how to do it, or they get told multiple conflicting ways?

The best teachers are those who are reflective about their teaching, can manage pupil behaviour and have extremely good communication skills.

....AND know their stuff.

Any teacher who has taught outside their specialism knows how much better they are when they are confident with their subject knowledge even though all the other stuff stays the same.

Any teacher who has taught outside their specialism knows how much better they are when they are confident with their subject knowledge even though all the other stuff stays the same

^ This. In my subject I get outstanding in an observation as long as the wind is blowing in the right direction (i.e. nowhere near the school!) but in another it's anybody's guess what I'd get.

But I agree with Piggy. Lack of soft skills is not the problem at all.

My school has great NQTs quitting every year because of workload. And I can’t honestly tell them that things will get better if they just stick it out a bit longer.

The mind boggles at what training budgets must be being wasted.

Well we wouldn't want to haemorrhage money would we?

Oh and in order to haemorrhage money in a training budget a training budget would have to be there.

I don’t think, in my experience, a lack of ‘soft skills’ contributes to teachers leaving the profession. The teachers I saw leaving were outstanding practitioners with a lot of success in the classroom. I don’t think they lacked the soft skills to remain in teaching. I think the excessive scrutiny and workload and lack of respect is what leads to teachers leaving and I don’t see how that could be addressed by developing soft skills.

I’ve always been a bit wary of teachers who claim they are just amazing at controlling behaviour and isn’t it a shame other teachers aren’t as great as them. When you’re asking for insight/support/advice in the staff room to deal with a particular student, there’s always one who claims helpfully “ah well they’re never a problem for me”. We all know one. But the fact is that dealing with poor behaviour is draining, time consuming and demoralising for even the most experienced and valued teacher.

It doesn't do either. What is does do is give students a few hints and tips and then throw them into the classroom and expect them to know how to do behaviour management alongside conflicting advice from numerous colleagues, how to plan the perfect lesson from day one and how to teach good or outstanding lessons at all times and pull them to pieces when they struggle.
None of the training providers I've worked with have done that and the place I trained wasn't like that either.

How do they learn to manage pupil behaviour if nobody tells them how to do it, or they get told multiple conflicting ways?
Which is it either being told or not?
Plus there are many ways to skin a cat (so to speak). There are many strategies for managing behaviour.

A good teacher training provider and a good placement school would acknowledge there are many ways to manage a class.
There are many small things that can be done to manage a class before hitting a school's behaviour policy. Some schools have a very set way for everything. Other schools give staff a bit more autonomy below a particular threshold.

None of that is terrible teacher training

In fact, I would have an issue with any provider or mentor telling trainees there is one way to do things.

How do they learn to manage pupil behaviour if nobody tells them how to do it, or they get told multiple conflicting ways?

Yes we get told how to do it, yes we get told multiple conflicting ways.

Why?

Because what works in one class may not work in another.
What works for one teacher may not work with another.

The amount of different strategies that have been preached to teachers over the years goes in circles.

And of course there are those children that no amount of strategies will work with.

It's not surprising there are issues as lack of punishment for kids in general at home and school has generally lowered behaviour.
Then not expelling or putting enough children into special schools where they can cope with the behaviour/sen.
Putting kids in tables rather than sat individually in both primary and secondary.
Starting them at 4 before they have enough concentration and good behaviour.
Unfortunately the badly behaved kids from a generation before are now all the parents.
But again it's not surprising there would generally be worse behaviour because for eg many more dc will be born prem etc.
Previously i think the extra workloads for teachers would have been more understood and giving incentives is probably not the best idea as it's a tough job if you are going into it for the money.
I think though stupid data etc and targets have negatively affected so many jobs. People come in spend 10min and think they can reorganise depts more efficiently-they cant, they cant do simple maths to understand why a certain number of fte is needed (to cover holidays/sickness etc).
Tbh i think graduates being pushed into jobs with no knowledge or experience and encouraged to claim to know lots is a big issue.

There just seems too much variability between schools from
MN threads some schoolschange 5 books daily and others 1 a week.
Lack of awards based on genuine merit from primary age (why even bother?)
And other gov services falling apart cant help, closing libraries, nhs issues so if a child has glue ear they just never get grommits now (which also impacts behaviour).
So much is just logical why wouldnt you be strict with the students (but not ridiculous), separate desks will help adhd kids and asd. Even enough loos and they might actually go rather than jiggling around.

student teacher did tell my class that the surface of a puddle was at 200 degrees the other day. Luckily my class politely argued back.

Sort of actually right.... But it depends how they explained it! Some of the water will evaporate and you could work out how much energy that transfers and link that to a temperature, which would be surprisingly high. KE =3/2kT and all that.

Any teacher who has taught outside their specialism knows how much better they are when they are confident with their subject knowledge even though all the other stuff stays the same.

Exactly - I am a teacher of French - but I was expected to teach half a year of German (secondary) a little while back, even though I don't speak a word of it, - because it's all languages innit?

It was the workload that caused me to not bother looking for more work when my last contract came to an end. It was time to prioritise my family and invest some time in supporting their education.

My experience was in supply and fixed term contracts in a large variety of schools around the county/ nearby counties. Schools with support systems and staff supporting were the nicest to work in, regardless of catchment and OFSTED grading.

There is so much fear in teaching. Personal anxiety. OFSTED. Constant observations/ learning walks/ work scruitinies. Competency. Difficult students and their difficult parents. Meeting impossible targets based on the myth of linear progression.

Constant reform with no resourcing. Teaching a narrow curriculum to the test. Pointless meetings and data. Constantly covering your own back. Double marking.

I knew when entering the profession in the early 2000s that it would be hard work and long hours, and it was. The PGCE was a massive learning curve, but it got better. The NQT year was easier, planning got quicker. My halcyon era was about 2008/9 with a few years of experience and before Michael Gove and austerity kicked in. After that it got harder and harder. My last 3 years were in a school clawing up from special measures. The first year was fine. Second OK. The third was when the new MAT was sticking its claws in on the quest to be good and I found myself one day resenting having to teach because it was getting in the way of important paperwork . Another day, I found myself gluing in sheets x30 to explain why I hadn't seen a class to produce work in 6 weeks due to a string of off-timetable/ INSET/ project sessions that kept falling on my only lesson of the week.

Education is under valued by too many, yet more important than ever. It needs to be a broad foundation of skills and knowledge to start life with to give young people options to take up as they approach adulthood.

The key problems come from education being a political football. Nothing is ever good enough. Professionals are ignored and criticised. It's the same story in the NHS too. Pupils are individual people with their own strengths and challenges, not statistical patterns.