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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how much longer school will do nativity plays?

436 replies

GreatestShowUnicorn · 20/12/2018 14:03

As there is no biblical scripture to show Jesus was born at the time of the winter solstice. Surely it’s just teaching creationism or that the world is flat?

OP posts:
Walkingdeadfangirl · 21/12/2018 23:02

It's clear from a lot of posts on this thread that many people who actively like nativity plays in schools aren't themselves religious
Or it could be that MN isn't a representative sample?
Or that what they really mean is they would actively like to see a nice christmassy play with their children in it.

FYI I am not saying the nativity play with children isn't cute and cuddly but it does have religious implications and people should have the choice of what their young impressionable children are exposed to.

Its interesting how many secondary schools if any perform a nativity play. I wonder why that is?

So any one going to explain why a religious church tradition has to be in a young children's school rather than in the, you know CHURCH? Where everyone including 'atheists' could have the choice to take part in!

BertrandRussell · 21/12/2018 23:06

Why do I need to “be careful what I wish for” when I’m for an end to Christian privilege? I can’t see a single negative.

53rdWay · 21/12/2018 23:07

The majority of U.K. families are not religious, on or off MN. So, no, MN isn’t particularly non-representative in that regard.

I don’t really care about nativity plays. But if you really really want someone in this discussion to explain why they should be in schools, you would have better luck aiming that question at the ‘I’m not religious but I like it’ people who are actually here than at the stealthy Christian brainwashing squadrons who are probably not.

MyNameIsArthur · 21/12/2018 23:11

So any one going to explain why a religious church tradition has to be in a young children's school rather than in the, you know CHURCH?

Churches I have attended over the years have nativity plays. Nativity plays at schools is just a tradition because the UK has been a Christian country for over a thousand years. If you don't like it then campaign for it to be removed

cosysock · 21/12/2018 23:12

Imo practically all aspects of our lives are steeped in the foundations of Christianity, the world we live in would be a poorer place without it. Stop with the bloody winching and be thankful for what it’s given us.....

Human Life
Human Rights. The concept of universal human rights and equality comes exclusively from the biblical idea that all people are created in the image of God.
Women. In ancient cultures, a wife was the property of her husband. Aristotle said that a woman was somewhere between a free man and a slave. According to the book Reasons for God by Tim Keller (page 249), "It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried, but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. See Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity." In India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. Christian missionaries were a major influence in stopping these century-old practices and ideas. Also see Misconceptions item #13.
Children. In the ancient world, for example in classical Rome or Greece, infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. Killing a Roman was murder, but it was commonly held in Rome that killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. Through a higher view of life, it was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanctide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. A Christian document called the Didache, dated from the late first century or early second century, contained instructions against abortion.
Slavery. While it is true that Christians have owned slaves in history, it is clear that this was a distortion of biblical teaching. (See Misconceptions, item #12.) Early Christianity elevated the roles of those oppressed in society, by for example, accepting women and slaves as full members. Slaves participated equally in worship and the community and were afforded contract and property rights. According to historian Glenn Sunshine in his book Why You Think the Way You do, "Christians were the first people in history to oppose slavery systematically. Early Christians purchased slaves in the markets simply to set them free." It is also true that slavery was ended in great measure by Christian activists. For example, historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the primary force behind the ending of the international slave trade (which happened prior to the American Civil War). Two-thirds of the members of the American abolition society in 1835 were Christian ministers.
Gladiators. A 5th century monk, Telemachus is credited as being the pivotal force ending the gladiator spectacles.
Cannibalism. Missionary followers of Jesus are credited with stopping cannibalism in many primitive societies.

Top of page Compassion and Mercy
Kennedy and Newcombe in their book detail the rise of charity in the name of Jesus over the centuries. This is in stark contrast to history before Jesus. Historians record that prior to Jesus, the ancient world left little trace of any organized charitable effort.

An important aspect of Jesus' ministry was his emphasis on helping the neediest and lowliest in society. For example, his Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) is a classic illustration that is still part of our language today. While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Christian charities stand out. They point to Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens and thrift shops in every community. Jesus has had such an enormous impact on charity that one wonders how different things would be if he had never been born.

D'Souza points out: "This is our culture's powerful emphasis on compassion, on helping the needy, and on alleviating distress even in distant places. If there is a huge famine or reports of genocide in Africa, most people in other cultures are unconcerned. As the Chinese proverb has it, 'the tears of strangers are only water.' But here in the West we rush to help....Part of the reason why we do this is because of our Christian assumptions....The ancient Greeks and Romans did not believe this. They held a view quite commonly held in other cultures today: yes, that is a problem, but it is not our problem....However paradoxical it seems, people who believed most strongly in the next world did the most to improve the situation of people living in this one."

The mythical character of Santa Claus points back to Christ. St. Nick unquestionably arose within the Christian tradition.

Top of page Marriage and Family
As explained by D'Souza, before the Chistian era, pederasty and homosexuality were not considered wrong: "Christianity exalted heterosexual monogamous love, which would provide the basis for a lasting and exclusive relationship between husband and wife, oriented toward the rearing of children. We take the family so much for granted—it remains such a powerful ideal in our society, even when actual family life falls short— that we forget the central premises on which it is based. Those premises were introduced by Christianity into a society to which they were completely foreign."

Top of page Education
From the beginning of Judaism, from which Christianity is derived, there was an emphasis on the written word. But the phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation.

In order to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. This trend was accelerated with the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation. Many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.

In America, the first law to require education of the masses was passed by the Puritans. The law was called "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." This name was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.

For the first 200 years in America, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. The emphasis on literacy was so intense in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.

All but one of the first 123 colleges in colonial America were Christian institutions. While these universities have lost their Christian identities, it is interesting to read the founding statements of these schools. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3?

Top of page Government of the People
While America's constitutional government is not specifically Christian, it can be argued that its roots are taken from biblical doctrines. Here are just a few possible arguments in this regard:

America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. The Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture. Other constitutions to follow contained many similarities to this one.
At least 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were orthodox Christians.
There is no doubt that the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system is a direct result of the biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of mankind. All of our founders understood the importance of this doctrine to the social order.
America's foundational idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man traces back to the Old Testament, beginning with the Ten Commandments.
The idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence is a biblical doctrine.
The notion of the sovereign authority of God (as mentioned in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)rather than the sovereignty of the stateis certainly biblical.
The existence of moral absolutes (a biblical concept) is an important idea in our Declaration of Independence--specifically, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator.
Many other aspects of our laws come directly from the Bible--for example the judicial, legislative and executive branches trace to Isaiah 33:22. Fair trials with witnesses have numerous Old and New Testament support.
Regarding civil liberty, founding father John Adams (and others) emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10. Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Jesus himself was the greatest civil libertarian of all time.
"Here we see, in its embryo, the idea of limited government. This idea derives from the Christian notion that the ruler's realm is circumscribed and there are limits beyond which he simply must not go....Our modern idea of limited government takes the Christian notion of space that is off-limits to state control and extends it to the whole private sphere....The separation of the realms should not be a weapon against Christianity; rather, it is a device supplied by Christianity to promote social peace, religious freedom, and a moral community. If we recovered the concept in its true sense, our society would be better off." (Dinesh S'Souza)

Note: See the other article on our site entitled The Bible and Government.

Top of page Science
Kennedy and Newcombe also argue that science has its roots in Christianity. They point out that other world religions may express a worldview of fatalism (everything is fatalistically determined) or of illusion (that the physical world is an illusion). Science could not have arisen from these worldviews.

Christianity on the other hand, is based on the notion that there exists a rational God who is the source of rational truth. This, they argue, gave rise to the possibility of scientific laws.

Evidence for this view is that nearly all the founders of modern science were Christians. These include men such as Keppler, Boyle, Pascal, Pasteur, Newton, etc.

Top of page Free Enterprise and the Work Ethic
Private property rights can be traced to the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:15, 17 (Thou shalt not steal,?Thou shalt not covet.")--as well as to other passages from the Old and New Testaments. Interestingly, there are over 700 references to money in the Bible!

It is noteworthy that Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was written in 1776, the same year as the birth of America. But many historians credit theologian John Calvin from 200 years earlier as the person who is most responsible for putting together the principles that were always in the Bible into a system adapted by the American founders. For example, the biblical doctrines of self-reliance and self-denial are the foundation of the famous "Protestant work ethic." These doctrines are at the heart of our economic (and political) way of life.

A distinction can be made between biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is on the importance of servanthood--a key teaching of Jesus. Evolutionary capitalism, on the other hand, relies solely on the survival of the fittest. See our blog article Biblical Capitalism in Uncertain Economic Times.

Anyone who doubts the relationship of biblical ideas to free enterprise need only to note the stark contrast with communism. Communism is specifically an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good (thus will work for the common good). But communism has been an abject economic failure.

As put by D'Spouza, "The system of modern capitalism arose in the West. To some it is surprising that capitalism developed so easily in conjunction with a Christian ethic. But capitalism satisfied the Christian demand for an institution that channels selfish human desire toward the betterment of society. Some critics accuse capitalism of being a selfish system, but the selfishness is not in capitalism—it is in human nature....While profit remains the final goal, entrepeneurs spend the better part of each day figuring out how better to serve the needs of their actual and potential customers. They are operationally, if not intentionally, altruistic....One may say that capitalism civilizes greed in much the same way that marriage civilizes lust."

Top of page Art, Music, Literature
The influence of Jesus on art, music, and literature is enormous. For example, the Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc.

Had Jesus never been born, music would likely sound very different from what we're used to. There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, for example, signed all his works with Soli Deo Gloria ("Solely to the glory of God").

Art has likewise been magnificently impacted by Jesus. While much modern art seems to debase the human spirit, classical Christian art tries to bring out the best of mankind--pointing us to a higher plane. This is certainly a tribute to Jesus.

And think of all the incredible architecture through the years. Especially noteworthy are the beautiful cathedrals in Europe.

53rdWay · 21/12/2018 23:15

‘Biblical Capitalism’? Hmm

BertrandRussell · 21/12/2018 23:24

Cosysock- how about using your own words, not a wall of text c&p from a “how to debate with atheists”website?

cosysock · 21/12/2018 23:36

Maybe because it’s quicker, pretty obvious i would have thought. Who cares, it’s true.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 22/12/2018 00:17

cosysock, it is interesting that you think 2000 years after 'jesus/god' and approx 6 million years of human evolution, 'god/jesus' deigned to give us human rights.

Here is me thinking millions of human beings fought and died to give us those rights in the last century. How silly am I feeling now.

cosysock · 22/12/2018 00:55

No need to feel silly walking, Perhaps you didn’t read it properly, where it explains where our human rights originated from.....and millions of people fought and died because they had little choice, but if you read it properly it was Christianity that was partly responsible for the abolition of slavery and many more evils. The human rights we have today are in place because of our Christian forefathers.

Meanwhile why not go and bash another religion, there’s plenty to go at.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 22/12/2018 01:40

cosysock of course I didn't read it, it was cut and paste nonsense.

Christianity that was partly responsible for the abolition of slavery and many more evils You are right I remember god/jesus/holy spirit writing on tablets of stone that enslaving human beings was wrong. My bad, guess my RE indoctrination at school didn't take.

abacucat · 22/12/2018 02:58

I think what most parents like is a nice Christmas play with their kids in it. I suspect most wouldn't care if it was a nativity or a general winter type play.

abacucat · 22/12/2018 03:02

Lol at the idea that Christianity was partly responsible for the abolition of slavery. While it is true that some more radical Christians and sects such as quakers were openly against slavery and campaigned against it, most churches were preaching about knowing your place and accepting the status quo.
The truth is the bible can be quoted to support whatever position you want it to support.
Also note it was the quakers who were the only Christian sect to campaign to allow religious gay marriage. They do tend to be at the cutting edge of fighting injustice, while the mainstream churches campaign or preach to enforce injustice.

cosysock · 22/12/2018 06:48

A lot of us are proud of our Christian heritage, the same way muslims and Jews etc are proud of theirs. So why the hell should it be called Christian "privilege" when it's actually a Christian country. As if it'd be called "Islamic privilege" if you lived in the Middle East. As if you'd even be allowed to practice Christianity over there and have churches built etc. I'm proud to live in a country that has its own Christian roots and traditions but is tolerant of other other religions and allows them to practice freely.

I'm equally sick of the moaners who nothing is ever good enough for. Leave the nativity play alone ffs and be happy that's all you have to gripe about. Also be thankful you live in a country that allows you to gripe. Put it down to Christian tolerance. The irony. Hmm

BertrandRussell · 22/12/2018 07:15

Bit gobsmacked by the suggestion that I should be “thankful” that I am not being persecuted by Christians for being an atheist!
Cosysocks-do you think it’s right that people of faith have a choice of 30% more state funded schools than people without faith?

53rdWay · 22/12/2018 07:26

But cosy it is mostly nonsense. It is a copy-paste from an American site somewhere with a very shaky grasp of history and an even shakier one of theology. Nobody’s ‘Christian heritage’ relies on Adam Smith publishing The Wealth of Nations the same year America declared itself independent. It’s prosperity-gospel waffle. Have you actually read it?

53rdWay · 22/12/2018 07:34

Although it would have been interesting if the writers of the US constitution really had tried to enshrine ‘Biblical capitalism’ in law. Every 50th year as a Jubilee year where all debts are forgiven, all slaves and prisoners are freed and all land is returned to its original owners? Don’t see that catching on somehow...

BertrandRussell · 22/12/2018 07:42

It’s also important to remember that there is a difference between Christianity causing something to happen and Christians causing something to happen. If you consider that even today, people in public life in the U.K. are expected to be at least nominally attached to a faith, it’s only a very short time since it was an actual requirement. So technically everything, good and bad, in the U.K. was done by Christians!

cosysock · 22/12/2018 08:01

do you think it’s right that people of faith have a choice of 30% more state funded schools than people without faith?

Strange isn’t it that people of no faith at all often clamour to get their kids into catholic schools, often because they are high achieving schools compared to others in that area and the kids get a better education.....so no i don’t see a problem with it. What is it exactly that bothers you so much, is it just the principle of the thing.? As long as your children get a good all round education why are you bothered so much?

speakout · 22/12/2018 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request - posted on wrong thread.

BertrandRussell · 22/12/2018 09:35

It bothers me that people can live next door to a state funded school and not get a place because they are not of the right faith. I also wonder how people of faith can reconcile the idea of having 30% more state funded schools to choose from with their ideas of justice and wanting a fair world.

Incidentally, faith schools are only “better” when they are oversubscribed. Any selective school- regardless of the selection criterion is likely to be “better” than an all comers school.

53rdWay · 22/12/2018 09:50

I'm not in England, so my understanding of how the primary system works there these days is somewhat limited. We have our own issues here related to denominational schooling. That said, I don't think the local Orange Order feel that having a Catholic school down the road gives them more choice exactly.

My own DC likely won't be going to a denominational school. Personally I would rather have a school system that prioritised ensuring everyone's local catchment school was good, rather than prioritising expanding my parental choice in a kind of consumer marketplace model.

PeanuttyButter · 22/12/2018 09:53

What Woooman said.

Racecardriver · 22/12/2018 09:55

Well it’s a play. By its very nature it is a fiction.

woodhill · 22/12/2018 10:03

Where did you get the article from cosy.

Interesting about the Indian widows and the funeral pyre situation.