To blame Have I Got News For You for the mess we’re currently in?

[BertrandRussell]

None of this would have happened if Johnston, Farage and Rees-Mogg hadn’t been invited on and been allowed to present themselves as “good sports”.

legoland - I agree with you

Everyone should learn at least two European MFL if they live in the EU.

The blame for this lies solely at the hands of the individuals who signed up for freedom of movement so they could keep their wage bills low, secure massive rent increases on their properties and get sickeningly rich whilst not paying more taxes to provide the infrastructure to ensure the general public did not suffer as a result of the migration.

Whilst there are many valid reasons for leaving the capitalist boys club that the EU is - most people voted against immigration and that could have been avoided.

The right wing press has a lot to answer for I think. Endless anti-EU articles were published that were factually inaccurate and went unchallenged.

The press in general has a lot to answer for, both left and right, the left have also not helped with promoting the true nature of the EU, such as only recently pointing out that we could have taken a lot of wind out of the "anti immigration" crowd by utilising EU law for deportation in some cases instead of making out it was all tories fault, also the Tampn tax, pretending that its the tories fault for globalised companies not paying tax whilst ignoring Ireland, the list goes on, both sides of the coin are as bad.

I know what you mean, OP. Unfortunately different people take satire and these kinds of shows in different ways. To some of us they come across as brewery describes: 'Boris came over as entertaining but not necessarily someone you'd want to be in charge, Farage showed a glimpse of his true colours and RM proved himself to be the upper-class twit we suspected.'
but to others they'll appear to be good sports, bloody good blokes, just like us, etc.

More than HIGNFY, though, I blame those of my fellow Londoners who thought it'd be a laugh to vote Boris Johnson in as Mayor twice on the trot.

Satire helps to keep the system going.

It fools us plebs to think we have some control/awareness.

I thought this was going to be a lighthearted thread but actually it is really thought provoking - the role of humour and satire in politics and this decision in particular is something I hadn't considered.

The reducing of dangerous characters to buffoons, (HIGNFY and Farage for example), and a dismissal of the seriousness of the issue is crucial as is the constant left-wing humour which consists of ridiculing the very real concerns of large groups of people.

What should have changed years ago is the way we teach history, geography and economics into schools. Giving people a better knowledge of the world around them

This actually has already happened and it leads to the self loathing liberal bs of "blame it on the crusades and the empire" mindset. Like I say, you may have no problems with the significant demographic and cultural changes the EU will undergo in the next 50 to 100 years, but people should get a say in it. If the population of France or Spain was destined to be 30% white British by the end of the century you might have a point. Culturally Brits and French and Spanish are not all that different though.

Whilst there are many valid reasons for leaving the capitalist boys club that the EU is - most people voted against immigration and that could have been avoided

Agreed.

Culturally Brits and French and Spanish are not all that different

I went to a European School (school for children of people working in the EU institutions in Brussels, Luxembourg etc) and, boy, did we receive a valuable lesson in learning to love our EU neighbours and our shared culture, history and interests.

I do think, also, that we need to recognise that neither David Cameron nor Theresa May wanted the country to realise that we could always control EU immigration, just as other EU countries do. This is why he didn't get all of his so-called demands - they simply told him to exercise the powers he already had.
No EU citizen has the right to stay indefinitely without proving that they have the means of supporting themselves and their family adequately. They are not entitled to benefits for three months. It's absolute nonsense that it's simply a free-for-all flood swamping our borders.
The Remain campaign was a disaster because Cameron couldn't be honest about what the EU does and how it operates without shining a light directly at the Tories' many failings and inadequacies.

" If high migration continues until 2050, Sweden’s Muslim share will grow to 30.6%"

That was the only country that had % > 30% in that article for yr=2050 (I think?). A problem is the low base... Sweden's Muslim population was < 5% in 2016. The rate of change is kind of important in that projection. They could have used a longer-trend rate, not recent rates.

I first blame the people that voted the tories in. Then I blame the people who voted leave. Kind of thought after thatcher people would realise what the tories are like, but history always repeats itself.

I can't stand HIGNFY - find it really snide (apart from Paul Merton who seems ambivalent about it at best) but DH watches it so I catch glimpses of it. I don't think those three people being on it particularly affected viewers voting - I think it's more likely that the presence of middle class, privately educated mostly white males on the panel every single week sneeringly implying only thick people would vote to leave would influence people.

lljkk

I'm not sure there is any point in quibbling over data, the point is that it is significant and that this has coincided with Brexit and the rise of nationalist anti EU parties across Europe. You can agree or disagree with nervousness about or distaste for Islam but I believe this is what is behind a lot of it. Either way the point is that a massive demot shift is underway that will change the face of Europe over the coming century and people did not have any say in it. Wether they are correct in blaming the EU for it is another question to go along with whether there is any blame to be apportioned.

I think it's more likely that the presence of middle class, privately educated mostly white males on the panel every single week sneeringly implying only thick people would vote to leave

You don’t need a panel show for that, the Leave campaign knew exactly who their target voters were. A back room campaigner reportedly said ‘our people are the old, the badly educated and the poor’.

Because the old, the badly educated and the poor are largely dismissed by the establishment, they are belittled and their needs ignored so why wouldn'y they be a target audience for change?

akerman and user 1499
Thank you.
The EU as an institution is not perfect, it is after all attempting to satisfy the wants and needs of 500 Million people of widely differing cultures but all of whom would like a comfortable life, free from danger, with adequate food, housing etc.
There was a fatality due to terrorism in Strasbourg a couple of days ago, at a Christmas market. The people of Strasbourg are our friends in the EU and deserve support just as those in the EU show support for UK citizens. Just because you don't know them personally, does not make them an enemy. I was in a pub in Brussels watching the football in the summer. I was possibly the only English person there the pub owners are Irish but the place was stuffed so solid with people having a good time you couldn't fall over and bizarrely enough one of the most common languages for the differing groups to communicate in was English. That is what being European is all about, sharing different experiences.

You can agree or disagree with nervousness about or distaste for Islam but I believe this is what is behind a lot of it. Either way the point is that a massive demot shift is underway that will change the face of Europe over the coming century and people did not have any say in it

We saw exactly the same ‘nervousness’ in Nazi Germany and Pétainiste France of Jews, gipsies, Slavs, homosexuals etc. But yet they’ve integrated perfectly well.

Why are you so afraid of demographic changes? Waves of immigration has always been how this world populations have evolved. Why do need to have a ‘say’?

They are also easy to manipulate.

You see the reasons that people have for voting leave and you can see the leave campaigns point. They did a good job really of manipulating them.

Because the old, the badly educated and the poor are largely dismissed by the establishment, they are belittled and their needs ignored so why wouldn'y they be a target audience for change?

The point is the Leave campaign is equally dismissive of their own target voters as white men on panel shows. They were targeted because they were the most gullible.

You see the reasons that people have for voting leave and you can see the leave campaigns point. They did a good job really of manipulating them.

Exactly. Leave didn’t target vulnerable groups because they cared about them, but because they were the easiest to manipulate.

I blame the people who voted leave

I'm more pissed off with the people who didn't bother voting.

Actually, thinking about it.

The only people to blame in this case are the Politicians.

They're the only people that have had any influence.

I put a tick in a box to express my desire. That's it - I'm not at all responsible for anything that happens after the vote.

I'd accept responsibility if I'd voted a party in that sold all our children. But Brexit was (is) a cross party project & it was their responsibility to work it out amongst themselves one way or the other.

The vitriol against people for voting as per their democratic right is pointless & achieves nothing.

Culturally Brits and French and Spanish are not all that different though.

As someone who's lived long-term in multiple countries across multiple continents, can I point out that actually none of us are really all that different.

I'm more pissed off with the people who didn't bother voting.

Indeed, they were obviously happy either way.

That's why voting should be mandatory - to prevent the cries of "it was only xxx% of the population"