To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

Just curious, sacreJaune, how do you know the best Othellos have been black?

@thighofrelief

To me, this is a fairly sensible question although I am dubious about the OP's reasons for the thread.

We're living through an age where identity politics and a race to be the most oppressed win through. We should disregard the opinions of gammons* because of who they are. A woman's opinion should be taken over a man's because women live in a patriarchy. Black over white because of "structural racism". Ablism. Disablism. Specieism. Gay over straight etc.

It's moronic to judge an argument on the identity of the utterer as opposed to the validity of the argument.

Where we can have an Asian Bess or black King of Scotland, why can't we have a white Malcom X? That would be whitewashing which is apparently wrong.

*a racist and offensive term if ever there was

@sacreJaune can that be seen as a racist term if the inventors of it are the same colour as the people they are calling the term?
The issue here is the fact that people think PoC playing ‘white’ roles as worse than white actors playing black roles.
Just look at the fall out for black panther and it’s ‘token’ white actors.

"It's moronic to judge an argument on the identity of the utterer as opposed to the validity of the argument."

Of course the identity of the speaker has an influence. We hear so many white, male, mc voices that we are automatically attuned to thinking those are more valid, because they are often accepted as objective truth. The supposed validity of arguments is massively influenced by the culture we grow up in/live in. Also, those in a position of power are more likely to be listened to and have their argument disseminated - again, more people will then feel they're speaking 'the truth' - 'if it's on the BBC, it must be true'. Plus, people in positions of power are more likely to be better educated/be more articulate, therefore more likely to be listened to.

I'm far more interested in hearing eg women's voices on feminism than men's, NI people on the border with Ireland than English people's etc etc.

It comes down to the ones who are affected most by certain issues, not just who can make the best argument.

"it's a race to be seen to be the most oppressed and therefore the only voice worth hearing. I don't have the experience of being a PoC in modern day Britain "

Really? I don't think you can class BME people in the 'race to be oppressed' category. They have been and continue to be discriminated against in every area of life in the UK.

Save the 'oppression olympics' bs for the tumblrinas and their 39 gender identities, not for people who actually face oppression.

As for the second part I quoted - no shit.

Taco, I think it's helpful if people of all kinds join these threads. It allows us to see what the others think. No one has told you to shut up and stop complaining on there. I think it's been a good debate.

"I'm happy to be completely silent on race and diversity if that is the most helpful way forward, or not. Or is that dumping problems in the oppressed's lap?"

The best thing is to listen and to support, of course, always. No one is asking you to stay silent but white people need to let racial minorities speak up, instead of putting words in their mouth or dominating the conversation.

That makes you an idiot. No offence (genuinely

Not being able to attempt to understand someone else's viewpoint without resulting to insults doesn't really make you come across as very articulate, but that's fine with me.

I am able to understand what you're saying. I just disagree. I don't think you're an idiot. I just think you think differently, and that's ok.

@Hisaishi

I think your write eloquently and seem well educated. However, if you give validity to an argument because of the person who made it as opposed to what was said, it makes you an idiot.

I wish you'd defended the premise of appeal to authority as opposed to a mild flounce.

Will you?

Why is the speaker more important than what they have to say?

I'm so sick of hearing white people bang on furiously about race to white people.

Why?

Surely, it's ok for white people who've listened to non-white people to talk about race to white people.
What's wrong is for white people to bang on about racism to non-white people.
It's not as if the white people who don't want to listen to other white people talk about race are likely to listen or want to listen to non-white people about race.
I'm sure non-white people are tired of talking about race to people who don't want to listen. But I'm only guessing, by drawing a parallel to women tired of talking to men about equality.

I agree that racial minorities should speak up

So,

More like you haven't been listening.

But you can choose who you listen to.

I'm baffled that it was actually said that non-white people should speak out.

Where did you grow up, thighofrelief?

The problem is not with the white people who speak out.
I'm happy for men who have listened to women to speak out on behalf of feminism.
The problem is still with those listening. If you don't want to listen, it doesn't matter who speaks to you about race or feminism.

Not so new in the theatre though. I remember seeing Romeo and Juliet when I was studying gcse English with a diverse cast. The production was excellent, but I couldn't get on with it as the leads were so blatantly not their parents' offspring. Really off-putting. Maybe they were trying to avoid building in a racial overtone to the feud, but it's all meant to be fairly tribal so I think that would have worked better.

Taht is whey these threads aer good because hopefully people do listen and learn as well as speak. If the UK is 82% white then it would not be surprising if 82% of people posting were white and indeed some people in the UK who are white are affected by racial issues.

I certainly welcome men debating issues about sexism too. Let everyone speak.

How we do plays obviously is always going to vary. Romeo and J is about sex between children in our own day and age's views in the UK, but what was then lawful sex between very much consenting teenagers. I suspect if we cast those two as women of my age (50s) it might not be quite so popular.

it's white to white re PoC experience re race or man to man re female experience of patriarchy it feels and sounds like rhetoric.

Surely you can talk about racism reporting what you've listened to without pretending it's your own experience.

Still, as a white person I've experienced other white people being racist. Shouldn't I talk about that to other white people? And shouldn't I challenge it? Why?