To think you can't be a "nice guy" if you use prostitutes for sex?

[NotMyOriginalName1]

Or can you?

In short, somebody I've known for a number of years openly admits to visiting sex workers and has deluded himself into believing he's one of the good guys and isn't exploitative. He spouts bullshit about having respect for the women he sees and thinks they adore his charming company.

I've lost what respect I have for him.

Unbeknownst to him I have personal experience of these situations, I was a sex worker in my late teens and what lead me there was an abusive relationship. I never felt respected by one single 'customer' in fact it was the 'good guys' who made my skin crawl the most.

Aibu to say he's an exploitative c-u-next-tuesday or am I jaded as a result my own trauma?

He is vile.

I think there are a lot of very informed opinions here.

The majority of sex workers are not there of their own choice. I’ve been part of research and I read a lot of other research too. It overwhelming paints a very worrying and bleak picture of the life of an average sex worker.

Nice blokes dont need to pay for sex but the latter is uncomplicated and may, perhaps more often than not, not involve abuse. Mind you, would there be any porn unless people watched it.

However, one would never say such a thing to a woman. Its not a 'good thing' to do. I wouldnt want this guy as my friend - his value system is shite, pardon the word. I would put his behaviour down to self delusion and an inferiority complex, he's also probably infectious - but in a bad way.

Meh. I used to be a lap dancer. It's not prostitution, but it's in that vein.

I did in willingly. I enjoyed it. I really did find it beneficial to me in one way or another.

Do I think the guys who paid me were awful people? To be honest I did pity them on some level. All of us dancers did a little bit, some of the girls did quite a lot! It's probably what - if anything - we could say we found empowering about it. The men were all a little bit "lesser" in our eyes for needing us; for needing this pointless little jig we did that they all fell over themselves for. Whether or not we enjoyed it, it doesn't change what it made the men.

And to me a man who uses prostitutes is that times a million. What you're taking from the prostitute is so much more than what you take from the dancer; they are so much more used. It's so much more violent in its brute physicality. It's one thing for a man to feel entitled to look at a woman for money, and that's contemptible enough, but what it must be to feel entitled to... well, to whatever he wants with her.

It's a reaction that truly comes from the gut. And to me that reaction is "scum".

He doesen't sound too nice, quite conceited actually.

The latter makes me want to face-palm. He KNOWS that most women wouldn't be interested in doing whatever it is he's "into" without being given an incentive, the incentive in a lot of cases depending on the sex workers circumstances removes their ability to say no because they need the money.

Yeah.

I don't care how many women prostitute themselves because it is such fun and easy money, the men who pay them are still all scumbags.

Because they know full well they have to pay a prostitute because they are either too undesirable, too egocentric, or too perverted for any woman to really want to have sex with them.
Or all three at once.

I know quite a lot of sex workers who have decided that working in the industry suits them. Their worst problems tend to be the antics of the authorities and the 'rescue industry' introducing regulations which are supposed to help them but in fact make their lives more difficult and dangerous. They find some of their clients pleasant - polite, don't try to push boundaries etc, but many of them are wary of the self-announcing Nice Guy, all the same. That's the type of client who tries to get freebies or has rescuer fantasies, or whose ego needs far more stroking than he's willing to pay for.

No he isn’t a nice guy. Also genuinely nice people never say ‘I’m a nice person’. IME

That to me @roly is your judgement from thinking as a dancer you were better than those girls that went to the next level.

It’s no more violent!! It’s all buying sexualisation.

And yes pp I did get your dumb ass sarcasm I just was not sure you did....

This thread has been very interesting and informative but mostly the points of view are from people who don’t know. The 7-8 who do have insight.... thank you for sharing. And again those who have had a shit and abusive and awful time I am so sorry and I wish that you find happiness and love.

On the topic of legalising prostitution: Was done in Germany. Led to a steep increase in official forced prostitution (of the Eastern European woman chained in the basement variety), flatrate brothels and lots of disgusting men choosing Germany as holiday destination.

Oh, and the prostituted women are still getting into legal trouble because there's so many rules they have to follow that they can't help breaking some.

Nordic Model works.

Just legalising prostitution and hoping things will improve doesn't.

So, why are you happy to collude with the notion that it is reasonable to rent a woman's orifices in return for money? And that prostituted women are happy to 'service' multiple men in unromantic, unreciprocal sexual transactions.

I do not believe that prostitution is inherently harmful. I am not damaged by providing a sexual service because it is my own choice, and I view it as a job.

A person forced into prostitution will certainly be damaged by it, however. It is coercion and control which does the damage.

Dontsweat my son has a mild disability. I think he will find relationships difficult. That makes me sad. It doesn't mean that I think he, or anyone else, has a right to sex. Sex isn't a human right.

Oh and the second sentence of the second para in that website: As every man, he has a need for sexuality. -- is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. No man (or woman) needs their sexual impulses to be fulfilled. That's rape culture right there.

(Oh, and by the way, I heard that from a woman who was a prostitute in Germany and regularly talks to women who still are prostitutes in Germany.)

If one thinks about it for approximately five minutes, it becomes quite clear that prostitution cannot be made safe and consensual.

Let's be real here: Men don't go to brothels for the risk of being rejected.
Or for having to use condoms.
Or for being told they can only do regular vaginal intercourse and nothing else.

Oh, and the prostituted women are still getting into legal trouble because there's so many rules they have to follow that they can't help breaking some

I would also hazard a guess that being illegal is half the thrill.

One client I had was a cop. He knew it was illegal so he thought it was ok as long as it wasn't full sex. That it wasn't so bad.

They justify it to themselves in ways like that . It's why whatever you give to men is never enough. They always want more.

I would worry what the next step would be if it was legal. What woukd they do or ask of the women to get that same thrill

What's the Nordic Model?

Grim.

You don't have to had personal experience of the prostitute's experience to be able to empathize and to realise how desperate their situation is.

The man in question has a daughter in her early twenties and was absolutely clear that he wouldn't want her to get into sex work, but then why is it OK for somebody else's daughter. I'm somebody's daughter, as is vamp and the other ladies who've posted.

I refuse to believe that at least a small part of him doesn't realise he is exploitative and think its at least, in part, wrong.

I did not get the impression that RatRolyPoly thought she was 'better' than prostitutes at all, but rather than the men paying to use women's bodies were (even) worse than the men paying to look at them.

thinking as a dancer you were better than those girls that went to the next level.

No, god no, I didn't think I was better than prostitutes! Not at all. In the same way I don't think women who have never worked in the sex industry were any better or worse than me.

It's the men I think less of for using prostitutes. I don't think less of a woman for being a prostitute, I genuinely don't, and I don't think less of a dancer either, or of someone who would never do either.

It's the men.

For me personally I would expect a "nice" man to not use prostitutes. Or dancers. I've said before and I'll repeat it, good people do bad things, but using prostitutes couldn't be much worse. Because you shouldn't be able morally to buy access to someone's body. That's different to selling it, but you shouldn't buy it. To use a pp's analogy I don't think less of a sweatshop worker, but I think buying sweatshop clothes is pretty fucking wrong.

I would also hazard a guess that being illegal is half the thrill.

Doesn't seem to keep men from going to prostitutes in Germany.

However, what the speaker at this one talk I listened to said was that you can't take the stigma out of it. Men need prostituted women to be stigmatized, to be seen as less than fully human. That's the appeal.

...she also said she had a lot of policemen customers.

Well, I no longer wonder why women don't feel safe reporting rape to the police ...

@Load: nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

I've been told they don't really do it correctly in France. It doesn't work if you just punish the men, you have to help the women get out of prostitution, too.

I don’t understand why anyone would want to have sex with someone who wouldn’t be doing it if they weren’t being paid to, never mind thinking they were being nice by doing it.

The man in question has a daughter in her early twenties and was absolutely clear that he wouldn't want her to get into sex work, but then why is it OK for somebody else's daughter. I'm somebody's daughter, as is vamp and the other ladies who've posted.

I personally think less of men who think women have only worth for being some man's daughter, sister, or wife.

Having to tell men that those women they rape are some other man's daughter so they think about it, is very, very, very sad.

And also makes me angry.

The majority of sex workers are not there of their own choice. I’ve been part of research and I read a lot of other research too. It overwhelming paints a very worrying and bleak picture of the life of an average sex worker.

The problem with research on the sex industry is that it largely relies on sex work projects for participants, which are used by sex workers who need support. It's a bit like collecting statistics on retail workers from an employment tribunal.

Leeds university did a study in 2015 (I think) which is a lot more representative.

that to me@rolyis your judgement from thinking as a dancer you were better than those girls that went to the next level

What I took from ratrolypoly's post was the contempt the strippers had for the punters. Whilst that contempt is understandable it is hardly conducive to the general well-being of society to create a demand where the suppliers at best have only pity for the consumers and at worst despise them. I bet that mixture of pity, contemptuous pity and despising goes both ways.

A man who pays women in order to rape them is a misogynistic shit by definition, in my opinion.
None of those women actually wanted to have sex with him. None of them would have done it for nothing. Therefore it is not consensual- it is rape.
He, in common with all johns, is the scum of the earth.
We need the Nordic model in the U.K.- criminalise all the pimps and punters, but not the prostitutes.
Prostitutes have higher levels of post traumatic stress disorder than combat veterans. Many use drugs to try and block out the grimness of their existence, many are trafficked. Studies regularly show that the overwhelming majority of them want to leave the profession.
So no, OP, your “friend” is very, very far from being a nice man. He is beyond despicable.