To think you can't be a "nice guy" if you use prostitutes for sex?

[NotMyOriginalName1]

Or can you?

In short, somebody I've known for a number of years openly admits to visiting sex workers and has deluded himself into believing he's one of the good guys and isn't exploitative. He spouts bullshit about having respect for the women he sees and thinks they adore his charming company.

I've lost what respect I have for him.

Unbeknownst to him I have personal experience of these situations, I was a sex worker in my late teens and what lead me there was an abusive relationship. I never felt respected by one single 'customer' in fact it was the 'good guys' who made my skin crawl the most.

Aibu to say he's an exploitative c-u-next-tuesday or am I jaded as a result my own trauma?

I agree with you @BoglingToAswad.

No one knows the reasons why anyone is either selling or buying. But adult should be able to sell/buy sex without being made out to be victims/predators.

It raises the prospect of a woman being sued for refusing to have sex, because she didn't have a clearly defined reason why not according to employment law. Does that happen in NZ?

I do wonder that.

I also wonder, even if there's no risk of being sued, how many punters a prostituted woman would dare turn away.

There's punter forums on the internet, and they are quite judgemental. I don't think they are kind to women who reject them.

As many people here have pointed out with "what about men who ..." posts, men go to prostituted women for the purpose of not being rejected.

It is actually illegal for a sex worker to have sex without protection. The rest is similar to any manual/physical worker.

What happens when the sex worker isn't given the choice and a punter removes a condom without her consent or knowledge.

That is a sexual assault.

I clearly worded it wrong (apologies), it is illegal for a sex worker to agree to or offer sex without a condom.

What specific steps to sex work are or would be taken to keep women safe from physical harm from the more violent punters

If sex work is a legitimate job, which cannot be criminalised in any form, then sex workers don't need to fear reporting assaults.

Allowing all sex workers to refuse clients (as independents are able to) would reduce assaults.

Allowing sex workers to work together would reduce assaults.

Things like a law preventing men with previous convictions for sexual violence or domestic violence accessing any kind of sex worker. Is something like that in place?

Honestly, I don't know off the top of my head, but it is an excellent idea.

Can't imaging the type of man who purchases consent agreeing to that though.

Actually I think many would welcome it.

I definitely don't think the answer was ever going to be criminalising punters or sex workers. What matters is dealing with the criminals who are trafficking women into prostitution and pimping them out that we want to see caught. And the punters and sex workers might actually be more willing to help the police with this if they weren't afraid of being treated as criminals.

I think the guys who visit sex workers are either bum holes or bum holes who lack in confidence. They need an ego boost regularly when nobody else is around to boost them.

There's punter forums on the internet, and they are quite judgemental. I don't think they are kind to women who reject them.

Having worked in hospitality for many years, I see many similarities between men who regularly post on those forums and the people who regularly put one star reviews on Tripadvisor. Fortunately they only represent a tiny portion of clients.

As many people here have pointed out with "what about men who ..." posts, men go to prostituted women for the purpose of not being rejected.

Many, many men are rejected by sex workers.

And the punters and sex workers might actually be more willing to help the police with this if they weren't afraid of being treated as criminals.

Doesn't seem to be happening in Germany.

Trafficking has increased, not been reduced.

How would the punters even know? The women will tell them what they want to hear, because they don't want to be beaten up by the pimps.

And why does trafficking exist? Because there are so many more happy hookers than punters?

Or perhaps more because there is so much demand for prostitution that the happy hookers can't even come close to satisfying it?

Why would the punters help the police when the outcome of that would be that they can't purchase sex anymore because there's nothing on offer?

If sex work is a legitimate job, which cannot be criminalised in any form, then sex workers don't need to fear reporting assaults

There is no reason for a prostitute not to report assaults at the moment.

Allowing all sex workers to refuse clients (as independents are able to) would reduce assaults

What would the criteria be for refusing punters? Do normal anti- discrimination rules apply? Because the penalties for breaching them can be severe.

Allowing sex workers to work together would reduce assaults

And where would brothels operate? Why should non prostitutes and non punters have to tolerate brothels?

... also, apparently a rather high percentage of punters are policemen themselves.

I deduce that a lack of communication between punters and police is not the problem.

A lack of communication between policemen who profit from trafficking and policemen who want to fight it, seems more likely.

It raises the prospect of a woman being sued for refusing to have sex, because she didn't have a clearly defined reason why not according to employment law.

Stuff like this is why sex work is not 'just another job'. Jesus.

You know when people say 'why didn't she report it' when a woman complains, years later, of a sexual assault? And people with compassion and common sense point out how difficult it is to obtain justice as a victim of sexual assault, and what a miserable process it is?
For a sex worker, you can double that. Sex workers who report an assault by a client can expect to risk a range of negative consequences, including deportation and confiscation of earnings, if they complain to the police about a client's conduct.

This is a good article about how dodgy the Nordic model is. The current blitzing of internet platforms which allow discussions of sex and communications with sex workers is extremely damaging to women and LGBTQ people, whether they work in the sex industry or not.

Thinking about the "just another job thing", I would also like to know whether decriminalisation means that prostituted women can sue punters who don't pay, or if that's still impossible.

Some men and women do have various kinks that see them get off on total sexual licentiousness. I do get that. I think those with this paraphilia represent a tiny number of sex workers, most of whom find it debasing and soul destroying.

At no stage did I say I was 'getting off' on selling sexual services. It is possible to enjoy being a sex worker, without that enjoyment being sexual.

There is a place between 'getting off' and 'soul destroying', which most sex workers occupy.

You are happy to sell yourself, but are those who buy access to your orifices for cash happy to respect the boundaries of the majority of women who aren't happy to do so?

I think most men are able to distinguish between someone who offers a service for money, and someone who doesn't. Otherwise I would be inundated with people asking me to do their laundry because there is a launderette down the road.

I don't say it's likely, I said that earlier myself, but there have been cases of it that I've read about. Other sex workers would be more likely to know about women forced into prostitution, if they felt safe enough to come forward (safe from retribution, I mean). But unfortunately, they're also not seen as credible witnesses, I don't know if this is changing?

This is a good article about how dodgy the Nordic model is

What alternative do you propose?

The fact prostituted women don't even bother reporting sexual assault because they know they have no chance in hell is a problem in Germany with legalisation, too.

@BoglingToAswad

I think you know that you're missing the point there. The discussion is about women who have been coerced into prostitution and who are not keeping the money that they're being paid.

Other sex workers would be more likely to know about women forced into prostitution, if they felt safe enough to come forward (safe from retribution, I mean).

Sure ... but considering that (almost?) no one on this thread proposes to punish prostituted women, I am not quite sure what you are arguing for?

So the fact that a woman is being paid doesn't at at all prove that they're willing, as I'm sure you must know.

It raises the prospect of a woman being sued for refusing to have sex, because she didn't have a clearly defined reason why not according to employment law

Stuff like this is why sex work is not 'just another job'. Jesus

I see the "it's just another job" brigade won't address that point. Is a prostitute, unlike any other business, allowed to be racist, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, disablist, ageist?
Most people generally accept that it is actually ok to be pretty bloody biased about the ethnic, religious backgrounds and appearance of the penises entering one's body without being called to account under discriminatory legislation .

I meant safety from the criminal gangs, who can be very violent, not the police, as I specified.

And the punters and sex workers might actually be more willing to help the police with this if they weren't afraid of being treated as criminals.

Doesn't seem to be happening in Germany.

And yet it is happening in New Zealand, who have decriminalised. Germany, on the other hand, have legalised.

It raises the prospect of a woman being sued for refusing to have sex, because she didn't have a clearly defined reason why not according to employment law.

In licencing law anyone can refuse to sell alcohol, and they do not have to give a reason. It is illegal to discriminate, but not illegal to refuse, because often there is no definable reason why they feel it may be dangerous.

Sure ... but considering that (almost?) no one on this thread proposes to punish prostituted women, I am not quite sure what you are arguing for?

Nobody has but, along with the notion being anti-punter means being narrow minded and anti-sex, it's a convenient myth to peddle.

In licencing law anyone can refuse to sell alcohol, and they do not have to give a reason. It is illegal to discriminate, but not illegal to refuse, because often there is no definable reason why they feel it may be dangerous

That isn't answering the question. It is legitimate for any business to turn away a customer as long as the reason for doing so is not based on a protected characteristic.

Do you think therefore a prostitute who for example does not like Chinese men no matter how "nice" they are, should be vulnerable to anti- discrimination legislation if she refuses a Chinese punter?