To think you can't be a "nice guy" if you use prostitutes for sex?

[NotMyOriginalName1]

Or can you?

In short, somebody I've known for a number of years openly admits to visiting sex workers and has deluded himself into believing he's one of the good guys and isn't exploitative. He spouts bullshit about having respect for the women he sees and thinks they adore his charming company.

I've lost what respect I have for him.

Unbeknownst to him I have personal experience of these situations, I was a sex worker in my late teens and what lead me there was an abusive relationship. I never felt respected by one single 'customer' in fact it was the 'good guys' who made my skin crawl the most.

Aibu to say he's an exploitative c-u-next-tuesday or am I jaded as a result my own trauma?

Decriminalising it would mean that prostituted women aren't punished, but also don't have to pay taxes and get registered everywhere and stuff.

Would you mind giving a source as to tax? I have never read that anywhere.

Decriminalisation in New Zealand means sex workers are given the same rights and protections as any employed/self employed person.

To me, it works when prostitution is reduced and the social acceptability of men buying women's bodies is reduced.

As a sex worker I provide a service, which I use my body to provide. Nobody is 'buying' me, and you cannot possibly know the motivations or thought processes of my clients. I really do believe that most men who pay for sex do not believe that that are entitled to it.

How in NZ do they apply health and safety rules to women who sell sex? Or are they exempt and if so, why?

Would you mind giving a source as to tax? I have never read that anywhere.

It was a talk given by Huschke Mau. Which is a pseudonym. She's a German woman who managed to get out of prostitution, so I am sure she knows what she's talking about.

Here's a link to her twitter: twitter.com/HuschkeMau

It is obviously possible I am misremembering, but I don't think I would misremember something as big as prostituted women having to pay taxes in Germany.

I really do believe that most men who pay for sex do not believe that that are entitled to it.

Most men who post here seem to think they are entitled to it, though.

"But, but, what about men who can't get laid for reasons X, Y and Z? What about them" ... and variations thereof.

I would be rather surprised if there was no overlap between men who feel entitled to sex and men who pay for sex.

How in NZ do they apply health and safety rules to women who sell sex? Or are they exempt and if so, why?

I think prostitution is hideous but couldn't you say that certain professions - such as professional sport - are also exempt from such rules?

BTW has there ever been a poster who refers to women as 'females' who isn't a complete misgynist?

It is very odd usage as a noun rather than the more natural "women"

Wonder why they do that? Still, not as cringey as "Ladies". There's no way to use that word without sounding patronising

No. At least "ladies" acknowledges we are referring to adult , female human beings. "Female" could apply to any species.

Rudolphie referred to people she knows who do earn a good wage in law firms etc but they supplement whilst they get to their chosen level. There was a report a couple of year's ago about a junior solicitor (or possibly a paralegal) who was working as a prostitute. I can't find the details but as one might expect it ruined her career prospects.

There was a report a couple of year's ago about a junior solicitor (or possibly a paralegal) who was working as a prostitute. I can't find the details but as one might expect it ruined her career prospects.

And the fact that someone wrote a report about it would indicate that despite what 'rudolphie' says, it's actually very rare for high-earning professionals to have a sideline in selling sex.

"Decriminalisation and legalisation of sex work are not the same thing. Yes, prostitution is legal in the UK, but there are laws which prevent sex workers working together. Again, I would suggest you have a look at Amnesty's site (or just Google it)."

I worked in the industry for almost a decade. I know the laws around sex work. And a common misconception is that it's illegal. It's far from it.

I think professional sport is also subject to health and safety law, but I am definitely not an expert. Certainly many sports like rugby and boxing have taken steps in recent years to reduce the risk of accidents and are continuing to do so.

BoglingToAswad what aspects of decriminalisation do you think are particularly necessary in the Uk and will make the most difference to the safety of women who sell sex?

Allowing sex workers to work together from the same premises will make work safer. At the moment brothel laws do not allow this.

Giving the same employment right to sex workers that everyone else enjoys will make brothel workers not just safer, but more able to assert their rights (eg if they don't want to see a client they shouldn't have to, but brothels run by criminals will frequently make them). In 2014 a New Zealand sex worker took her employer to a tribunal and won.

New Zealand has also seen an increase in cooperation between sex workers and police since decrim, and to see that in the UK would be wonderful for the safety of sex workers.

Keeping sex work underground is not good for the safety of prostitutes, and decrim allows rights without judgement or stigma.

I think professional sport is also subject to health and safety law, but I am definitely not an expert. Certainly many sports like rugby and boxing have taken steps in recent years to reduce the risk of accidents and are continuing to do so.

True but certainly in sports such as boxing, you are taking a serious risk to your health - even your life - by participating, and there seem to be no laws against that.

How in NZ do they apply health and safety rules to women who sell sex? Or are they exempt and if so, why?

It is actually illegal for a sex worker to have sex without protection. The rest is similar to any manual/physical worker.

How do you protect a woman selling sex adequately from bodily fluids? "Protection" is presumably just a condom?

Who is prosecuted if sex takes place without a condom?

Agree OP. How grim.

I worked as an escort for a while whilst at uni and struggling for cash as a single mum. All the guys I had were respectful bar one. Ultimately we all knew what we were there for! Maybe I was lucky with my experience but I wouldn’t lose a friend over something like this personally.

Haven’t been a prostitute but I did webcam for a while (was forced into by my ex) and I think OP that it’s a similar setup with the “nice guy” bollocks. There were soooo many that assumed that they would get free sessions from me because we were now “friends”. I lost count of the ones who actually thought I’d meet them in person for sex (for free because they were so special apparently). Many of them let the nice guy mask slip when they were told no and got incredibly nasty. It was never shocking though. it’s happened in real life to me so many times including with the ex who forced me into it.

Of course some were absolutely disgusting from the word go and I was incredibly thankful I wasn’t there in person with them because their sexual preferences were terrifying at times and their contempt was obvious. I still have nightmares.

And the fact that someone wrote a report about it would indicate that despite what 'rudolphie' says, it's actually very rare for high-earning professionals to have a sideline in selling sex

There was one other report. It involved a transgender solicitor and it is actually very sad. The circumstances were clearly unique to this person's individual situation and sexual preferences and were not, given the age and successful career of the person, a means of support. It only came to light after the solicitor was murdered. The murder had no connection to the sideline activities.

It is obviously possible I am misremembering, but I don't think I would misremember something as big as prostituted women having to pay taxes in Germany.

I realise prostitutes in Germany (legalised) are liable for tax ( as we are in the UK), but that does not mean decrim would allow us to not pay tax. In New Zealand (decrim) sex workers pay tax on their earnings.

I was asking for the source which said decriminalisation meant sex workers don't pay taxes.

Most men who post here seem to think they are entitled to it, though.

I'm sorry that you have had to read that, but my real life experience would say the opposite.

Ultimately we all knew what we were there for!

And what was that exactly, for the men?

I'm not trying to hijack the thread but there seems to have been a shift in men's attitude to using prostitutes over the past few years. When I was a young man back in the 70s, no man would have admitted to using a sex worker. In thse days, paying for sex was seen as the mark of a total loser. Now, from what the OP says, it's something that men will admit quite freely. Odd.

It is actually illegal for a sex worker to have sex without protection. The rest is similar to any manual/physical worker.

What happens when the sex worker isn't given the choice and a punter removes a condom without her consent or knowledge.

My husband is a physical worker and there physical risks to him are very different to the physical risks to a sex worker so steps to reduce physical harm will be very different.

He has to wear a hard hat, certain boots and clothing, a harness, safety nets, equipment regularly assessed for damage, constant training on health and safety are just a few steps employers take by law to keep their staff safe. I could list many many more.

What specific steps to sex work are or would be taken to keep women safe from physical harm from the more violent punters. Things like a law preventing men with previous convictions for sexual violence or domestic violence accessing any kind of sex worker. Is something like that in place? Can't imaging the type of man who purchases consent agreeing to that though.

I was asking for the source which said decriminalisation meant sex workers don't pay taxes.

Ah, that was just my assumption, I think, as she named the disadvantages of legalisation. Seems I misunderstood.

Doesn't endear the decrim model to me if it means paying taxes, too, honestly.

When I was a young man back in the 70s, no man would have admitted to using a sex worker. In thse days, paying for sex was seen as the mark of a total loser. Now, from what the OP says, it's something that men will admit quite freely. Odd.

I guess it has something to do with the spreading of porn culture and with prostitution being legalised in some countries.

I heard rumours that back in the days, men would also be ashamed of buying porn magazines. Not anymore.

Have you heard of "incels"? They pretty much embody what you would have called a loser back in the 70s, but they are quite proudly advertising that no woman wants to have sex with them ... and claim that it is not their fault for being so unattractive, but women's fault for not putting out.

Giving the same employment right to sex workers that everyone else enjoys will make brothel workers not just safer, but more able to assert their rights (eg if they don't want to see a client they shouldn't have to

And what would be the criteria for turning away punters? I , like any other legitimate business person, am permitted to refuse clients if I think they will be overly difficult/ a waste of time/ potentially dodgy/ involved in businesses I don't want to be involved with/involved in political or charitable or similar organisations I don't want to be involved with. I cannot refuse work if the refusal is based on race, ethnic origin, religious beliefs or disability.

It raises the prospect of a woman being sued for refusing to have sex, because she didn't have a clearly defined reason why not according to employment law. Does that happen in NZ?

There is a difference between giving a client a back massage or manicure (using your body or hands to provide a service) and bypassing normal physical boundaries and using your most intimate body parts to gratify strangers' intimate body parts.

There may well be a difference for you, but there is not for me. Everyone has different boundaries, and different views on intimacy, and I would thank you not to patronise me because mine are different to yours.

You may minimise it to cope and to defend your choice but it is akin to selling what is usually reserved for lovers (however new)

I am not minimising anything. We clearly have different views on sex work, but why do you assume your view is correct because it is more socially acceptable?

The buyer knows this and gets off on the fact he can invade a stranger's vagina or other orifice for money. It is a taboo he enjoys contravening

How can you know the motivations and desires of a man who chooses to buy sex? This is simply an assumption.

You deserve more than that in life.

I am a grown woman, and I am more than capable of making my own decisions.

Your entire post is an example of the patronising, infantilising and inaccurate attitude faced by sex workers daily.