To say its not a disease its a habit which started with choice. Alcoholism

[TreeFu]

My mother is a prolific binge drinker much to the detriment of myself and others around her, she has accepted she has a problem with drink but cannot be bothered to do anything to change her habits.

She can and does go for periods of time without touching one drop of alcohol, this is when she has no money to access it. During those periods she is just fine without it but as soon as she has access to money, she will binge until it runs out.

AIBU to believe this has nothing to do with disease and is down to her being weak willed, selfish and enjoying booze more than she cares about the wellbeing of those around her.

Madein1995 I just skipped your thoughtful and honest reply.

I totally agree with and you've expressed this beautifully. While drinking is a choice it's a very understandable choice for some people. If you're living with painful memories it may even feel like the only way to manage or live through that day.

I also totally agree that calling it a disease removes all responsibility. A person needs to feel responsible and motivated to stop drinking.

Good luck with the buprenorphine, you deserve every success

Thank you serena, I appreciate it

😀

To the OP or anyone else in the same situation: read or listen to Gabor Mate. A Canadian doctor who believed that childhood trauma leads to addiction. He also believed the parent's resulting mental issues will be passed onto the the children. Russell Brand did a really interesting podcast with him recently.

I think the OP should get help to manage her own experiences and how to help or disassociate from her mother.

ragged you can't always do something and even if you can, it's not the same.

Getting help for addiction isn't easy. But I held off getting help for 2years. Yes it was brave and scary etc. But someone who finds a lump or who poos blood doesn't wait two years. They go to their GP right away.

And of cancer treatment doesn't work sometimes. And yes addicts relapse and overdose, so treatment doesn't always work either.

But addiction is one of the fee conditions where the persons actions directly affect success. If I were to take medication, be honest, attend appointments, taper off, try - then I'm more likely to succeed

Chemo isn't influenced by a person's actions, not really. It's a medical treatment that either suceeds or fails. If someone doesn't attend counselling or is dishonest to their partner, the success rate of that chemo dies not change.

I bet cancer patients would love to be told that if they didn't eat chocolate or drink wine, that If they did some counselling, if they were honest and didn't lie or steal, that their chances would increase

Unlike addicts cancer patients don't have that luxury. Mam works in a care home. Some of her patients are diagnosed with cancer at a stage that all's left to do is give pain meds.

Ultimately addicts choose to try and succed. And it doesn't always happen, I might not do it. But their actions and attitude directly influence how well they do. Cancer or other physical diseases, are not

And for the mere fact that the 'addictiin is a dusease' line is said by addicts to absolve their responsibility, is a reason why it shouldn't be used

I thought that the reason alcoholism was classed as a disease was so health insurance would pay for its treatment.
If something isn’t classed as a disease then no insurance will pay for it. Hence the classification.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter whether it is a disease or a choice. People need help and treatment to get over it.

But why is it only alcoholics who insist it is a disease? You don't hear heroine addicts saying they have a disease, they say they are addicts. Ditto smokers. Ditto binge eaters. Addictions can be conquered so I lacking in a bit of sympathy with the helpless aspect of it. I'm quite pedantic and this use of the word disease really wrankles me and always has done.

OP - I have no experience or advice on dealing with an alcoholic but I just wanted to say that you sound like a lovely, selfless person. Your Mum sounds the opposite and from what you’ve said, she doesn’t deserve all your help and support. Your upbringing sounded quite horrific... And whether she has a disease or not, she also sounds very self absorbed and uncaring. She has let you down your whole life. I feel very sorry for you and wonder if you can take a step back, put yourself first, stop protecting and caring for her? It must be so draining dealing with that disappointment all the time. And soul destroying. I totally get that you are angry that she isn’t trying to change or help herself. Do you think she might try harder if you refused to see her again unless she stops? You deserve to focus on the positive things in your life that build you up and make you happy. It must be hard though and I am v sorry you are going through such a tough time with her.

I think that when it gets to a certain stage ie physical addiction it is very hard to change things. It’s xalled the family disease because of the way the behaviours spread to the whole family. We cover up, we feel shame, we walk on eggshells, we hide the alcohol and don’t drink ourselves. Disease means the lack of ease- and it is certainly that. Doesn’t matter what we call it IMO. Empathetic is needed, and especially for those loved ones it affects, they have the disease and need to cure it from their side without ever being addicted to alcohol.

In case the OP is still reading. I suggested listening to Gabor Mate. I will explain a little more. He contends that trauma in childhood can lead to addictive behaviour, which he classifies as repeated negative actions that a person will not stop despite the negative effects on their life.

He also has a very wide range of behaviours that he considers being addictive. I haven't read his book and only listened to his interview with Russell Brand. But it blew my mind and had so much relevance to my life. I don't wish to get him wrong, but he is basically saying that a child learns behaviour from their parents and develops behaviour to protect themselves from harm. This is why he says that trauma can be pass on through generations.

I see it in my marriage. Both me and my husband had one parent who ignored, belittled and/or represented negative parenting and the other parent who was passive. I look back on my relationship with my mother: left crying as a baby every night (proudly), ignored for younger siblings, constant criticism, no praise at all, no affection, belittled for family "jokes", unequal attention between siblings. Dh had a similar relationship with his father.

We are both unable to leave this marriage despite our problems - passive aggressiveness for DH and temper problems with me. Classic co-dependancy.

The point that Mate continually made is that childhood trauma - separation/neglect/abuse can lead to compulsive behaviour later on. It may range from clear alcohol or drug abuse to shopping, gambling, co-dependancy, mobile phone, gaming, even seeking of power.

Just listening to him, has made me so aware of my own and dh's problems and how we may (will?!) affect our child.

From the sounds of your relationship with your mother, you had a horrendous childhood and she must have been damaged at some point earlier in her life. She doesn't want to give up drinking or inflicting pain on you. You want/need attention (even if negative) from her.

I apologise if I have mis-read the situation, but it must be very painful and anger is the easiest emotion (I know that all too well!). I am sharing this with you as I believe that being aware of different ways of viewing it can help to process and ultimately help you.

I lost a baby in 2016 and she even used that as an excuse to go and get drunk as opposed to coming to see how I was, because she was oh so sad.

So sorry, OP. Grieving not only the loss of a baby, but the version of your mother who would comfort you, pick you up and get you going again. Please do go to Alanon. It will help you to draw your boundaries, accept the situation and move on.

Your anger is more than reasonable and I'm glad you've had a chance to vent here.

Good luck.

This resonates with me a lot, I turn my phone off during the binges with the fear that I will get a call confirming my worst fears. I feel selfish but the worry makes me ill

You are not the selfish one the alcoholic who's binging is the selfish one and they are managing to successfully project it onto you.
You absolutely should turn your phone off, you should cut all contact with this person whilst they are drinking

I understand your point OP. So in that regard YANBU...however......it's an addiction and she needs help to get over it.

She has to realise that and to want it enough.

It does seem that she's choosing alcohol over her family.

You definitely don't have to have a mh problem to be an alcoholic. There is evidence some people are predisposed to alcoholism (interestingly primate studies have the same % for teetotalism and alcohol excess).

I disagree with you. 100% of my patients over a 3 year period have been physically or sexually abused or physically or emotionally neglected during childhood. They have all had adverse childhood experiences and the range of ACE scores is 5 - 10. We just don't have people without a moderately high ace score entering prison addicted to drugs or alcohol.

This is why I find the perpetual blaming of addicts for their illness so bizarre. The cause of their dependence on drugs and alcohol comes from their childhood and therefore most likely their parents. It's not the addicts fault that they grew up with the toxic trio etc.

I disagree with you. 100% of my patients over a 3 year period have been physically or sexually abused or physically or emotionally neglected during childhood. They have all had adverse childhood experiences and the range of ACE scores is 5 - 10. We just don't have people without a moderately high ace score entering prison addicted to drugs or alcohol.

OK, and I disagree with you because I know a fair few middle-class people from good families, have had every advantage, who are functioning alcoholics.

I'm sure it's true that a lot of alcoholics have chaotic backgrounds. Equally, many people from chaotic backgrounds change tack entirely in their adulthood and strive mightily to avoid their parents' vices.

You've also, FruitCider, seemingly drawn your assumptions from the prison population, which is (obviously) an entirely different kettle of fish.

OK, and I disagree with you because I know a fair few middle-class people from good families, have had every advantage, who are functioning alcoholics.

I'm sure it's true that a lot of alcoholics have chaotic backgrounds. Equally, many people from chaotic backgrounds change tack entirely in their adulthood and strive mightily to avoid their parents' vices.

They may be from good families (whatever that means) but that doesn't mean they don't have a moderately high ACE study. In fact the original study was done on 17'000 middle class Americans. Unless you have directly asked them the list of 10 questions now on earth can you know that they weren't/haven't

Sexually abused
Emotionally neglected
Physically neglected
Physically abused
Witnessed domestic violence
Experienced their parents separating/divorcing
Their parents were addicts
Their parents had mental health problems
Someone in their family went to prison

The original questionnaire is here
www.ncjfcj.org/sites/default/files/Finding%20Your%20ACE%20Score.pdf

You've also, FruitCider, seemingly drawn your assumptions from the prison population, which is (obviously) an entirely different kettle of fish.

I've been working with addicts for 12 years and thinking about my entire career I cannot think of a single person I have worked with that didn't have a moderately high ace score. I just mentioned prison work because the number of patients is measurable eg 5 new receptions on average 6 days a week 52 weeks a year for 3 years = approx 4680 admissions to prison over a 3 year period with a high ACE score.

I haven’t RTFT but I agree with you OP, YANBU. I have family members affected, and I find the response to this letter very helpful: www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/virginia-ironsides-dilemmas-my-partner-is-an-alcoholic-1921325.html

To say it’s a disease is defeatist talk, it absolves the alcoholic of any responsibility for trying to get better, they think they can’t help it. To look upon it as a choice, albeit a very tough one, is the road to recovery, imo.

People who have a high tolerance for alcohol have an additional pathway for metabolising it they can drink more before they get drunk, I don't remember any more details but this was discussed in a documentary about alcoholism that I watched.
Anyway these people are at greater risk of alcoholism.

To say it’s a disease is defeatist talk, it absolves the alcoholic of any responsibility for trying to get better, they think they can’t help it. To look upon it as a choice, albeit a very tough one, is the road to recovery, imo.

I couldn't agree more. As an adult child of an alcoholic and the ex wife of one, I find the alcoholism is a disease argument to be total crap. My ex husband went to rehab twice, didn't want to engage, came out and started drinking again. My dad died at 56 from liver failure.
I had a problem with speed many years ago ( undiagnosed add), but it only took one friend to tell me that it was out of control for me to see that I'd gone too far, so I stopped. It was horrendous to come off but I did it.

Even now, I crave it. But I don't ever give in to the urge because I have dc's and it's a shit way to live. Pity my dad and xh don't see it that way

I'm with you OP. I grew up with an alcoholic mother.

She had MANY opportunities to stop or say no. Even her young children begging her to stop didn't work. She definitely had a choice and made that clear.

Thankfully she stopped after a health scare 15 years ago. She now openly admits that it was a choice (or series of) at the time. She is an incredibly selfish person and always will be. She can be lovely but when push comes to shove, she always looks after number one. Her behaviour now is selfish, not through alcoholism but through other things.

I honestly believe that selfishness plays a major role in it.

Also I don't think people can justify having an opinion until they have first hand experience of it, whatever that opinion is.

They may be from good families (whatever that means) but that doesn't mean they don't have a moderately high ACE study.

FruitCider as a social scientist, you'll know very well that the various factors comprising an ACE score will occur at much lower rates amongst the middle classes and would be further filtered by adulthood achievement . It's not some crass assumption on my part that affluence necessarily prevents abuse.

Moreover, how do you account for the jump in middle-class alcohol abuse and ACE scores?

Nobody in their right mind would choose the pain and indignity of dying slowly of liver failure. Most alcoholics don't die of liver failure these days, GPs can stave it off for a while.

No GP can do anything about a drinker who doesn't want to stop. No one can.

Well looks like I won't have to deal with her tomorrow after all, her best friend has just text me on her behalf and said mum doesn't think she's going to make dbros birthday meal because she's had a terrible night hallucinating.

Self inflicted after binging.

Selfish self interested bitch of a woman doing this in the lead up to her sons birthday. He took time off work especially to come and see her.