To say its not a disease its a habit which started with choice. Alcoholism

[TreeFu]

My mother is a prolific binge drinker much to the detriment of myself and others around her, she has accepted she has a problem with drink but cannot be bothered to do anything to change her habits.

She can and does go for periods of time without touching one drop of alcohol, this is when she has no money to access it. During those periods she is just fine without it but as soon as she has access to money, she will binge until it runs out.

AIBU to believe this has nothing to do with disease and is down to her being weak willed, selfish and enjoying booze more than she cares about the wellbeing of those around her.

My father is the same, can go for periods without a drink so doesn't think he has a problem, and will use this time to profusely apologise for all the problems he's caused during a binging session. Then will go out and buy drink, drink the entire bottle and then continue to drink whatever else is available in the house.

I think it must be a disease to be aware of all the destruction you will cause when you take that first drink, but do it anyway.

The constant disappointment is exhausting, dealing with an alcoholic is exhausting. I have extremely limited contact now which is tough but has helped.

Nobody in their right mind would choose the pain and indignity of dying slowly of liver failure. Alcoholism is a disease as horrible as any other. Your mum isn't drinking to hurt you, although I completely understand how very hurtful it is. She is an addict, who is buying booze because her body and mind crave it.

"Whilst my mother has spent her day getting sloshed without a care in the world, I've spent mine anxious and worried panicking about whether she's going to fall and smash her head open again"

This resonates with me a lot, I turn my phone off during the binges with the fear that I will get a call confirming my worst fears. I feel selfish but the worry makes me ill. It also prevents me having to read all of the ineligible text messages in the middle of the night.

Treefu, you said a number of posts back that something something you were feeling sorry for yourself in a way that implied you shouldn't be. You have every right in the world to feel sorry for yourself and be angry and anything you want to feel. I understand that you long for the love your mother never gave you, but no amount of waiting for it is going to make it happen. Putting alcohol to one side for a moment, she is clearly selfish and a narcissist. You're right to go no contact because that won't change. You may not have her as family, but you have your family. Your DH, your DC. You have all the family you need.

Walking away is so, so hard, but you will be so much happier. Look forward to the new year, it's going to be the start of a new and happier life for you.

@TreeFu “Just wondering what the general consensus is about which addictions are thought to be diseases and which aren't.“ - alcohol and heroin are substances which are physically addictive, in the the body will physically crave them, and withdrawal can actually be dangerous. Things like cannabis are not physically addictive, and any cravings for them are emotional, in the mind rather than in the body.

I agree with others who’ve said that you’re “unreasonable” to think alcoholism is a choice, but actually you’re not unreasonable at all to be angry and hurt at the way it has affected you and your life. I’m glad you have made the decision to put yourself first.

I'm absolutely dreading seeing her on Monday if she bothers to turn up for my brothers birthday meal. A part of me hopes she doesn't but that's me being selfish and putting my feelings above my brothers who would like to see her.

Now I've made the decision to distance myself I don't want to be around her at all

OP - I'm sad to say I believe there is no point in doing anything with or about an alcoholic. They will either give up or they won't. Few problem drinkers are physically dependent as you saw yourself by her lack of DTs. I've been sober many years, anyone who tried to stop me was wasting their breath and effort. Now nothing and no one could make me drink. People say to me "oh it's amazing that you didn't drink when blah blah happened". For me it isn't i would no more drink than put sardines in my eyes.

Just cut her out of your life completely until / if she decides to give up. There is no point.

I believe it's a psychological compulsion, which can be overcome. I took a valium on the days i would have binged for one month. I'm not interested in drugs and that was my plan to get my body used to it.

Alcoholism is a disease and is recognised as such by the World Health Organisation.

I am a recovering Alcoholic,nearly 16years now since my last drink.Nothing stopped me drinking,it was only when I had had enough that I did sometching about it,went to an AA meeting and have been going ever since.

OP have you thought about attending Al-anon,meetings for people who are affected by someone’s drinking,it would be a tremendous support for you.There is also a website called Sober Recovery,the Forums on there are excellent,There is one for friends and family of Alcoholics.

Wishing you well and some peace in your life.

where you really aren't piss ignorant.
that's the whole point its a mental health problem when someone gets this bad.an addiction.
do you think she wants to do this.do you think she wants to choose a glas of fucking fluid over family jobs life.do you think she wants to ache with the need for it then sit and sob when her money runs out.i bet she would beg steal and go into debt for that fluid.but yeh easy if she just gave up right.how dare you.
god people really need to get a clue.
she loves you.she had you and you would have been the most precious thing on the planet.do you think it burns her every single second of the day to choose a drink.a drink!over you.
how much of an arse would you be to choose a drink.
therefore it gets to the point where it is NOT A CHOICE.
she will die.choice?
she will be in pain when he liver turns to mush.choice?
no no no.
and the mental health stuff.could it be too painful.her addiction is like a physical being that dominates and stops her.you cant always step away and often you don't even now why not.and that an be horrific for the sufferer.they no they are in a spiral.but they cant stop.wont stop.need to stop but just damed cant.
like othe illness they cant just take medication or even have a choice to take a pill to ease there symptoms or chance of cure. they have to battle against there own mind.
who knows why some people can change.many factors help.like support.love.lifestyle.but sometimes something clicks and sometimes it doesn't.
but it Is NEVER that easy as just stopping

but I know for family and friends and anyone effected by it is like being ill urself.your going alongside it and seeing this happen.and addiction also makes the person seem like the most selfish shit on earth.becasue they are seemingly to all othe eyes putting the addiction first.and it makes them horrible sometimes to be with and makes them a horrible person.
htheyd never wish to be this.i promise you they would never wish to have turned into the person they are.
and they can be begging you wit everything they've got to make it stop make it stop make it stop.they can literally take a knife and say please kill me becaue I cant make it stop.and then they can kill themselves because they cant.its then you realise they never could.
but I no its horrible for you.i no its painful.it must hurt so much.and how she behaves must be fucking awful.and im sorry for that.
its not your fault.and you are worthy of being first choice always for you mum especially.so im sorry for that.

@kateandme I can assure you I'm far from piss ignorant I've seen the entire process pan out from day one and been dragged through it all.

This isn't a woman who's body aches for alcohol. She is not physically dependent. It's a compulsion and one she hasn't got the inclination to try to fight against. She openly admits, brags even, that she enjoys binge drinking.

Yes she does "want" to drink, drink taking priority over work and family isn't a penalising factor for her because she's a lazy cow who never wanted to work in the first place and she's been a disinterested, abusive parent from day one.

She hasn't shown neither one of her children or grandchildren even a fraction of the attention that she shows alcohol, even before she took up drinking she never gave a shit about anybody but her bloody self. Her children are an inconvenience to her, she doesn't enjoy our company or have any desire to be a parent to us, she's being practically dragged out to see my brother on his birthday and if we didn't bother making it happen then it simply wouldn't.

This woman is a cold, narcissistic binge drinker and she doesn't fit the bill for the helpless and desperate alcoholic you describe. Sorry.

The only ignorant party is her, ignorant to the role of a parent and her childrens / grandchildrens needs.

She is a nasty selfish shit of a woman.

TreeFu
im so sorry I react like a knob.i was immediately defensive.reacting on my own emotions.im sorry.who am I to say who your mum is and it sounds like she was very hard before the drinking and there is no excuse for treating you wrongly.
do you think she could have these problesm which then led to the drinking.
I reacted to seeing the kindest most loving person become addicted.and become someone I would never have thought was the same.and tired to battle for and with them until it ended in the worst way possible and I quickly leanrt the addiction isn't a choice.
but of course there are different people and different types of drinking so im sorry if I got it wrong about your mum.
and im sorry you've had to face this hurt as a constant.
its nothing on you though.youve got your kids yes?just focus on the loving people you have around you if you can.the love they give.the love you get from the people around you is what you deserve.and what to focus in on when it all gets too much.
is it your brothers birthday soon did you say? just try and make it the best you can.youve got eachother.thats an army of love right there.
its her miss out then if she hasn't bothered.shes missing something amazing.you will grow up with love and having nurtured and had many adventures.she will have missed all that.her loss.

How do you imagine your mother feels about her drinking?

@Zulor - who cares? Treefu has given far too much care and concern to her mother who has never reciprocated that. I do not believe all alcoholics agonize and despair of themselves. Some of them literally do not give a shit about anyone or anything else. For some alcoholics, that is their actual personality and not just a symptom of the progression of their alcoholism.

Treefu I think you've handled yourself really well on this thread in the face of some terrible posts. I can hear how angry and frustrated you are and how close you are to walking away from your role in your mother's problem. You need to know that you do not have to manage your mother any more and you don't have to try and make your brother's birthday okay. It won't be okay - whether your mother is drunk or sober that day - it won't be okay because your mother is unconcerned about the devastating impact her choices have made on her children. You cannot be the person who makes it okay. No one can, and you are wounded by her yourself. I really think you are ready for al-anon and to make changes. Please think about you, your own pain and unmet needs. Your feelings are healthy. No wonder you're raging. Your pain could not be more valid.

I think this sums it up pretty well for me

www.renegademothering.com/2014/02/07/we-dont-start-with-a-needle-in-our-arm/

I'm sorry your mother is an addict and the impact that has had on your life. But no one in any rationality would choose this path

I agree with you OP that this can be the case . My mother was an alcoholic and didn't want. To stop or get help..

I've read the article. I find it so disgusting when alcoholics compare themselves to people who have cancer. The self-absorption it takes to do that.

Be angry at the disease - not the person-
I really wish people wouldn't stereotype and discriminate against anyone suffering this- alcoholism/ addiction is a terminal illness if left untreated, and yes, a massive part of that disease is it IS all consuming - to everyone it comes into contact with - and as such you really need to separate the person from the illness....

Of course you are suffering OP- it's a horrible thing that your having to deal with this side of it- there is only ever pain that surrounds addiction - and stepping away from it might actually be the only way your mother can reach the very crucial point of surrendering herself into recovery, which sounds like something she needs to do snap out of the denial (a symptom) that you seem to be describing that she is in-

A PP mentioned an organisation called Al-Anon? Please make contact with them and ask for some advise and support- they will be there to help YOU and what you are suffering -

To me it doesn't sound like your mum has alcoholism, she is a binge drinker, that's all. If she copes fine without alcohol when she doesn't have it (ie no tremors, withdrawls etc) then she is not an alcoholic. So really the topic you ask is null and void regarding your mum. Binge drinking is a choice. Alcoholism isn't. They are two entirely different things. One has no side affects when off it, the other involves terrible physical withdrawal symptoms.

However, YABVU in thinking alcoholism isn't a disease. A disease or dis-ease is defined as;
a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.
a particular quality or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people.

Alcoholism clearly falls into this definition. It causes dis ease or whether physically or mentally unease in people. Disease is not merely bacterial, it is mental as well. And addiction comes under that. If your body has physical withdrawals to alcohol, then that is clearly a physical addiction hence dis-ease.

I agree with you OP. My father is an alcoholic. I could have written your post. He has had thousands and thousands of private and public money spent on his 'illness'. Months and months of sobriety end up in the bottom of a bottle. Yet every time he falls off the wagon and I cannot get my head around the fact it is a stone cold sober fully informed choice to take that first sip.

Looks like 'ignorant' is buzzword insult of choice tonight on Mumsnet.

You are not her mother and stop acting as though you are. Trying to get her to stop is pointless and you are wasting your time and energy. For your own sake try to detach, not necessarily by being NC but by not assuming responsibility for her.

That article is mad to me. It seems like the author is taking absolutely no responsibility for her own actions, focusing instead on her disease and how she couldn't have predicted when she took her first drink, how life would end up.

I'm not sure of the disease model. I'm an addict myself, very very recently started on buprenorphine. I'm very new to all this. My main issue is my childhood, and the affect it has on my self esteem and confidence, loneliness, and these have contributed to my addiction

But if I'd not had an abusive childhood, would I still have ended up addicted? If I hadn't been bullied through school and university? Is it just something I was born with?

I don't think so. I think its a way of coping with the stuff I've been through. To say it's a disease conjures images of going to meetings forever (I'm not a group person anyway, therapy or counselling fine I'll do forever, but i dint want to be clinging on byba thread forever), on substitution drugs for years (determined for this not to happen, some people are on it for 11yrs plus, I don't want that) and basically have thus rule my life forever. I was happy before and I can be happy again. I accept I can't take opiates for pleasure ever again, and that will require some work, and that work will be forever.

But saying it's a disease makes it seem like it's going to rule my life forever, much in the way diabetes would. It would mean I couldn't do stressful or challenging jobs, or take leadership roles, or go to parties.etc. I'm not dim enough to think I won't need to do some work, and that work will be forever eg counselling. But it won't control me forever.

And sorry but someone telling me it's a disease would (has in past) made me absolve myself of responsibility. That's not right. There are causes to it yes. But it's up to me to manage and sort it out. Making out it's a disease I can't do anything about is unhelpful

beeefcake I understand the comparison but anorexia is most definitely an illness. It's actually the most deadly mental illness, 25% of sufferers die from it. You can be sectioned for it and treated without your consent with medication and even force feeding.

You can't be treated for addiction without consent, unless you have another problem which affects your capacity. I.e. if you had dementia and without a detox regime you would be at risk of having a seizure, treatment could be enforced under the capacity act.

People with diseases can always do something about it.

I am a former addict and do not agree with the disease theory. What I would compare addiction to is more a computer virus. you rewire your brain's reward centre every time you use until eventually that part becomes dominant and takes over the rational part that wants to quit.

I pulled myself out of my addiction kicking and screaming when after 10 years Id finally had enough of all the negative consequences of getting high. It was difficult, but possible and I did it on my own (only help was from an internet support group). I'd tried many times before and relapsed.... eventually I was just ready to finally leave it behind.

So I'd say addiction is a choice but once entrenched not an easy choice to quit. Entirely possible though when the individual is ready, I'm living proof of that.