To be angry and feel the Scottish Gov’s Twitter header is an attack on women?

[Badmoonsarising]

i’d like them to clarify exactly what their definition of “transphobic” is because it seems to have become a slur these days often aimed at anyone but mostly women who are critical of or question in any way the recent upsurge of identity politics. I just feel they’re doing a knee jerk, ignorant, unnecessary huge fuck you to women.

The attempt by people with no argument to goad is truly desperate. Several times a particularly goady poster here has referred to me personally as "that".

I'm not really a reporting person but I don't think it's really in the spirit of MN to refer to people who you don't like as "that".

The attempt by some to go la la not listening, it's lies, LIES, you be goady!
No just different view! If it sits better in your head to see it as goady, so be it.

That upthread was meant that quote upthread, not referring to you as a person.
Put that upthread as can't link quote on phone.

Stop saying it about me. You've used it like that about me specifically several times.

You say don't name check you either.
So I was going for the quote rather than your name.

Not engaging further.

As in " that quote upthread said if they get their way"
Should have used the word quote in there too, I see that now.
The rest of the comment still stands before we started picking at wording again to avoid anything not wanting to hear being said.

Yes, quite obviously you should have done. Everyone else manages to quote people. It's not difficult.

Not avoiding anything. I won't be engaging with you personally after this. See it as avoiding if you wish. I care very little not one iota for your thoughts.

As I said, you can't link quotes on phone. Maybe yours can, mine can't.
I did quote you. Just missed the word quote out. Wasn't referring to you as a person.
Why is it we are word picking and avoiding the rest?
You get back a tone what you give out so if I'm snippy now it's because you and others "tell us please" then a patronising head pat of "oh verbeena, you've been told before that's not right." Have another go." It has to be the right answer. Which is what I said right at the start.

I really don't understand why people continue to debate when the opinions of some posters are so far apart

Happy to engage with some posters on other threads but it's impossible to discuss womens rights with people who honestly believe that women are people who say they are

And there is no discussion to be had with people about trans rights when they believe that FEMALE can have a penis

Oooh forgot the a

Or the s

Ive forgotten whole words before so a single letter is a massive improvement

I have just RTFT
VerbeenaBeeks you have no argument. You contradict yourself and talk nonsense
Any definition of woman that is not biological is subjective and not provable. Aside from biology we are all individuals with our own likes and dislikes but it is our biology which makes us women
Males can present in what is considered to be feminine, no problems there, but they cannot change sex.
We should be breaking down barriers and encouraging everyone to present as they wish and not be confined by gender norms
If woman is something other than biology are we going to start defining some women as men because they are not feminine, don't wear makeup, whatever the new definition is
Without a definition woman is a meaningless category.

...but can't we all agree that transphobia (as described in the full version of the poster on the first page of this thread) is a bad thing? And that the Scottish Government isn't sticking two fingers up to women to say so?

Can agree with that, there really isn't is there when some are happy to accept transwomen and some aren't.

Cross posted with loads, sorry that was agreeing with rufus

VerbeenaBeeks you have no argument. You contradict yourself and talk nonsense

That's both completely untrue in substance and deeply unpleasant in delivery. Well done you.

we are all individuals with our own likes and dislikes but it is our biology which makes us women

And it is our biology which makes our minds. Unless you think they're magically gifted to us from above?

We should be breaking down barriers and encouraging everyone to present as they wish and not be confined by gender norms

"We" are, thanks.

If woman is something other than biology are we going to start defining some women as men because they are not feminine, don't wear makeup, whatever the new definition is.

Er, no, because quite patently "we" are not of the belief that gender identity is something that an be imposed on other people.

Without a definition woman is a meaningless category.

Don't be ridiculous, if you can't think of a way to describe natal women without saying trans women are not women, then I suggest you see how I just managed it in this very sentence.

verbeena

I think there is a lot of grey area in the middle

But yeah....at either end i dont see the point, just ignore or maybe focus on the bit you do agree with

Not you you...royal you

People start asking questions or asking me to explain myself, I answer.

Patently not true, Verbeena. I asked you a question multiple times, and you refused point blank to answer.

One more time: do you or don’t you acknowledge that “transwomen” are male?

I can not agree with that poster about transphobia.

One example is gives is to humiliate.

Is it humiliating to call a male, male? Is it humiliating for a transwoman to be told they are not female?
In some cases, yes, they may find it so.

Does that mean we should all be forced to lie? No. Never.

Transwomen are not and can never be female.
That is not hatred, it is fact.

Verbeena, if you can't cut-and-paste using your phone. Can you type the person's name, and put an asterisk either side of it. That highlights their name without sending them an email.

Don't be ridiculous, if you can't think of a way to describe natal women without saying trans women are not women, then I suggest you see how I just managed it in this very sentence.

You have to use the term natal woman to do it. There is no such thing as an unnatal woman.

You have to use the term natal woman to do it. There is no such thing as an unnatal woman.

So it's possible to define the group though, right? The group some insist be the only ones referred to as "women", because if they're not the only ones they won't be able to organise themselves and continue to lobby for rights based on their specific needs? Because suddenly there will be no words to describe them?

Except we absolutely can still define ourselves - with... well... words - and so trans women being women is no threat whatsoever to the ability of natal women to continue to organise around their biology when it is required.

What is a natal woman, if the word woman includes both males and females?

What is a natal woman, if the word woman includes both males and females?

The opposite of a trans woman for people who don't like the word cis.

Except mostly people only don't like it because if there is a woman that distinguishes trans women from natal women they can't continue with the lie that TW=W means no more being able to group ourselves based on our shared biology.

The only thing that would stop certain women being able to organise around their shared biology is the quashing of any prefix which indicates a woman born with the necessary observable parts!