To think we need a congestion charge in every major city?

[impossiblecat]

The traffic is getting insane.

It's dangerous and bad for everyone's health.

With the exception of the disabled and people who live within the limits of said congestion zone, obviously.

I'd have all money raised ploughed into public transport.

The demand needs to be there for public transport to improve, otherwise who is going to pay for it?

But with public transport in an appalling state in lots of places - how do they know what the demand is? People who live rurally mostly have cars because it's a necessity to do so (to get to shops, school, work etc), so they're not going to start using over-priced public transport to try and prove a point, are they?

The public transport/infrastructure needs to improve hugely before people will start to use it. Nobody is going to pay more to use train/bus when driving is cheaper and quicker.

So I buy a tandem for three, drop the kids off at their schools, cycle into the city, try not to look sweaty and smell, do my work, park my bike outside Asda, get the food for tea, cycle back to two different schools and we all cycle home???

Yes why not? Probably not a tandem but there are other options such as child seats/trailers/own bikes if they are old enough. No need to get sweaty - cycling is much more efficient than walking. You can very easily cycle slowly enough to never get sweaty (although if it's hilly you might need an ebike!).
Shopping/picking up children is much quicker and more convenient by bike. No need to spend ages trying to park. You can put some panniers on to carry it in.
The limiting factor is safe routes that children can ride on. The other issues can be easily overcome. (See the Netherlands where most people do exactly what you describe).

I wonder how many out of towners use Liverpool and Manchester at the weekends. Our train service is running a strike every Saturday for five weeks in the run up to xmas. Something to do with driverless train objections. So in Wales we can go nowhere by train on a Saturday just now, we can drive, if you add a congestion charge then places like Cheshire Oaks will grow and grow.

Would Liverpool Manchester miss the business of visitors or do people who live there create enough trade for them to do well?

See the Netherlands where most people do exactly what you describe

But again, the Netherlands has the infrastructure in place for that to be possible! No way could I cycle to work - it's too hilly, it would take too long and in winter in the dark it would be downright stupid - dark, windy, single track roads with no streetlights.

I could cycle to school, yes, but I'd then have to turn around, go back home, collect the car and drive back past the school to drive the 45 minute journey to work!

*But with public transport in an appalling state in lots of places - how do they know what the demand is? People who live rurally mostly have cars because it's a necessity to do so (to get to shops, school, work etc), so they're not going to start using over-priced public transport to try and prove a point, are they?

The public transport/infrastructure needs to improve hugely before people will start to use it. Nobody is going to pay more to use train/bus when driving is cheaper and quicker.*

That's kind of the point - driving needs to be made more expensive and inconvenient than public transport. This is what the congestion charge is trying to do. Public transport is good in places where it pays for itself, but this does require a lot of people to use it.

Also it doesn't really matter what people in rural areas do. Most people live in towns/cities. I am not saying that cars should be banned in rural areas. People who live far out may need to park and ride if they work in cities. However there are many people who'd rather drive even when there is a good public transport service - these are the ones to target.

At the end of the day us city dwellers are getting ill because of this pollution so something needs to be done even if it is a bit more inconvenient.

Paying for parking puts me off going to the high street

What do you think a congestion charge will do??

Here Amazon, have more of my money..

But again, the Netherlands has the infrastructure in place for that to be possible! No way could I cycle to work - it's too hilly, it would take too long and in winter in the dark it would be downright stupid - dark, windy, single track roads with no streetlights.

Sounds as though you live rurally - so if a car ban in cities came in, maybe you could drive the first bit then park and cycle/use public transport for the last bit.

I agree we need much better infrastructure and cycling on dark windy lanes in winter is not going to appeal to most.

No, because there's insufficient public transport and it's so damn expensive to use what we do have. To take a bus to work would cost twice as much as driving, plus my dd would have to pay for her bus (I drop her en route). Not everyone lives in cities with good public transport

Would Liverpool Manchester miss the business of visitors or do people who live there create enough trade for them to do well?

We need the visitors!

However we also want to breathe clean air. Everyone driving everywhere is not a future that is compatible with health and happiness for the majority of this country's population who live in towns and cities, especially as most of us don't even have a car ourselves so are just breathing in everyone else's fumes and getting no benefit.

No, because there's insufficient public transport and it's so damn expensive to use what we do have. To take a bus to work would cost twice as much as driving

Hence the need for a congestion charge to make driving more expensive than the bus! If congestion charging can be used to subsidise the bus then that would be even better

That's kind of the point - driving needs to be made more expensive and inconvenient than public transport.

But that just won't work for a huge majority of the country. Yes, most people live in towns and cities but that doesn't mean you can put a huge tax on rural living by demanding people who have no choice in the matter (as in, they have to drive to get to work/school) pay the congestion charge every day on top of parking charges.

The answer to high levels of pollution isn't as simple as a congestion charge. Why, for example, can't more people work from home, or work in offices in their home town (that they can walk/cycle to) and log in to their company's intranet/services remotely? Instead of a congestion charge, why not make all new cars low-emission/electric by law? Or, as you say, have more park and ride services - I can't think of any towns/cities near me that have this as an option.

London, and to an extent, cities like Manchester and Birmingham, have the infrastructure to allow a congestion charge in the first place. The solution to pollution is not to price people out of driving when currently, huge amounts of us have no choice. Demanding people use public transport is all well and good but that option needs to exist in the first place - like a PP we've had no Saturday train service for weeks due to strikes - when the buses stop running at 6pm (winter service), there's no choice but to drive if you want to go anywhere (like, home from work!)

Most cities do not have a good network, I can't even travel to my friends house 4 miles away without buying two separate day return tickets because of different bus companies, oh and we still can only pay cash! A city of 300k people.

I use my car for everything because it actually goes when I want to travel, buses are every 30 mins until 6.30pm then hourly until 10.30pm when they stop - I have to fetch my daughter from work. The mayor has done absolutely nothing

Hence the need for a congestion charge to make driving more expensive than the bus!

But it's not just about the cost, it's about the times. I physically cannot get to work on public transport. I'd either have to leave the night before and spend 7 hours in a bus station, or get to work three hours late (if I got the first bus - there is no train). Then I'd have to leave work after two hours to get home on time. I work in retail so I can't work remotely, just like thousands of other people. Even if driving was five times more expensive than it is now, I still couldn't get the bus to work!

*Paying for parking puts me off going to the high street

What do you think a congestion charge will do?*

Reduce traffic so that the high street is clean, pleasant and safe for all, this will increase the numbers of pedestrians and cyclists doing their shopping locally. Car drivers mostly go to big supermarkets anyway and don't spend much in town centres.

This is a really common misconception. In areas where cars have been banned, high streets have been revitalised. Most high street shoppers do not come by car.

d. Most high street shoppers do not come by car.

Do you have evidence to back up that claim?

Edinburgh has done a lot to make it expensive and inconvenient to drive into town (and easy to park and ride) and people still drive 🙄
Congestion charge would not put off those who can easily afford it. Unfortunately.

I read in my area in the school holidays vehicle use at busy times drops 25%.

Unfortunately because we live in a tourist area we then have to contend with congestion by caravans, cars, caused by visitors. It was mooted to charge holidaymakers a tax a £1 per day per person tax. To help the economy. That caused huge arguments with visitors saying they refused to pay to visit Wales.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41608453

I commute regularly in Sunderland. Yes at times the traffic is bad but there are bloody awful roadworks at the moment which aren't helping.

Taking public transport would cost too much. Plus I'd have a 1.5mile walk along an unlit lane to wait for the bus which may or may not turn up and doesn't run before 7 or after 8. Then a long bus ride to the station and onto the train, then off the train and onto the metro before another walk to uni. It would turn a 40min trip into a 2 hour plus one.

School runs, supermarket shops, commuting to work - plenty of people do all those things by bike. And they generally tend to be pretty fit and healthy! It does help mind if all your kids go to the same school

The traffic in and out of Manchester to the North is dreadful and even worse with Regent Rd being dug up for the next 12 months. I queued on the Mancunian Way for 45 minutes at 11pm a few weeks ago.

I currently leave at 6am on the days I am working in Manchester and refuse to set off home before 7pm to try and reduce journey time - fortunately I only travel in once a week or so.

Add in the woefully inadequate train service to Bolton and beyond...

Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Swansea, York, Oxford etc

You haven't mentioned London.

I live in Central London and am absolutely fed up with people thinking they can contribute to the pollution here by driving in from outside.

We have a fantastic public transport system. I use it or walk. But selfish gits insist on driving and then complain about the congestion charge.

Often they go on about how I am really rich and privileged and they are poor and trying to make an honest living and I should put up with it.

Fuck that shit. I never had a problem with my breathing and have never smoked but now in my 50s I've noticed it. I can't believe what it must be like for people with established lung and heart conditions or young children.

Unfortunately buses currently are more than a little inconvenient.
A 15min journey is 30min incl a change and now costs £5 for the round trip. It would never cost that by car.
Another 10min journey by car is 5min bus and 40min walking again £5.
It is not just this but waiting for buses that are often late or not at all. You literally have to leave an hour early. So not great if you have to be back for the school run.
Although accessible by bus(es) I literally dont know anyone else who does these journeys. You just wouldn't especially if you have kids.
Plus when i used to commute into the CC for work the buses were often 40min late and could be full.

School runs, supermarket shops, commuting to work - plenty of people do all those things by bike. And they generally tend to be pretty fit and healthy! It does help mind if all your kids go to the same school

It also helps if you work somewhere where this is possible. What about people who live miles away down dark, unlit, windy country lanes? Are you really suggesting they cycle that route, with children, in the middle of winter? Or those whose only route in/out of work is along an A-road or a motorway?

But it's not just about the cost, it's about the times. I physically cannot get to work on public transport. I'd either have to leave the night before and spend 7 hours in a bus station, or get to work three hours late (if I got the first bus - there is no train). Then I'd have to leave work after two hours to get home on time. I work in retail so I can't work remotely, just like thousands of other people. Even if driving was five times more expensive than it is now, I still couldn't get the bus to work

This does sound impossible. What city is it?!

Yabu we only have 1 very late and extortionate bus every hour. Park and ride full and not fit for purpose. I can't afford to take my kids shopping by bus at £7 a pop each let alone 2 adults every day for work by bus.