Moral Dilemma - to sell this and pocket the cash?

[PersonaNonGarter]

I have a moral dilemma.

A Sponging Relative (‘SR’) has run up so much debt that he has finally been evicted from his property and is likely to be made bankrupt shortly. He is also a massive hoarder. Recently, my aunt went to visit SR and suggested he part with some toys rather than pack them before eviction. The toys were given to my DC.

The toys turn out to be worth a lot of money and I will sell them rather than have them take up space - DC aren’t going to play with them. Should I :

1. Pocket the cash and give it to my DC on some way like a holiday
2. Give it to the very skint SR
3. Give the cash to some of the people SR has sponged off.

He doesn’t sponge off me although he has tried. In law, I know they were a gift and are mine/DCs. But morally...?

@HermioneWaslib

As someone prone to hoarding things in the attic, I’d say it would be monumentally unhelpful to tell aunt or SR that these toys are worth loads. It will reinforce their ideas that everything is worth keeping. When actually, it’s very rare.

Excellent point.

The thing about paying one debtor and not another debtor is very real. There is a swirling group of friends and relatives of differing levels of discretion and need.

I could find out but it would be horrible and stressful to do that. I’m not offering to get into calling up semi-strangers to discuss money and SR. The gift of a box of toys does not oblige me to do that.

But it’s isn’t up to you to sort your Aunts hoarding issues?

You are just trying to use that as an excuse as to why you need to keep her in the dark about what you are planning to do.

A family member has given you some toys, possibly as a family heirloom in their heads, for your children to play with.

You have found out that a) your dc do not want to play with them, b) they are worth a substantial amount of money, possibly far more than the aunt knows and c) you have no desire to store them in your house.

There is no moral dilemmma here. Why not just call Aunt and explain the above?

It doesn't matter what you think, PersonaNonGarter - the trustee in bankruptcy can still claw back assets thought to be valuable if they were given away shortly before the bankruptcy. So you are just relying on SR being a liar and telling nobody about it.

I’m unsure as to how you found out the value of the items? Why was this one of your first courses of action?

In any event, you absolutely should speak to your Aunt first. There’s no moral dilemma here at all.

@AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight see, you do know they exist. Just not amongst your friends. So not surprising really after all for this relative to be an Oxbridge grad and yet still have made bad choices.

She was taking a box of family toys to another family member. No-one is conspiring or defrauding.

I agree that she may not be conspiring to remove value assets as she bought them for your children to play with. However, given that they are very value toys which are not being given to the children to play with, and you know there is a likelihood that he is going to be made bankrupt. I suppose it could be argued that by selling them and keeping the money you are depriving creditors. I'm not a legal expert in this area, but it would make me nervous that the money could be claimed back.

Ps I would be worried in any event about the laws of bankruptcy. If someone knows they are likely to be made bankrupt and rapidly gives away all their assers to family so that their creditors can't get access to them, is this allowed, or can the assets be clawed back?

It could be considered a transaction at undervalue, which could be reversed (ie OP would have to give the toys back or maybe could be pursued for the money she got for them). But I doubt this would happen unless the toys are worth a huge amount.

www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/technicalmanual/ch25-36/Chapter31/part4A/Part%203/Part%203.htm

Offer to Aunt and take off any costs, she will probably be very touched and tell you to keep it.

@JacquesHammer why assume something sinister? Her children didn’t want them and she doesn’t have room in her house to store unwanted items. Most likely, her next thought was to sell them on eBay or something just like how everyone on mumsnet tells you to do. 🤷‍♀️

‘You are relying on SR being a liar’. Er, no. SR will not lie about a box of toys? Why would he, he has no reason to value them.

Ah, so you are relying on yourself keeping quiet and not letting SR know he has given away assets worth up to £2,000. How very moral of you, OP.

You absolutely can't do anything till the dust settles on the bankruptcy
I know you think it's just a box of toys but you say it's worth up to 2k.

If sr or aunt mentions these toys and their worth the person handling the case may well contact you at which point you need to be able to say I've got them. Not I've sold them..as you may not have got the value they were worth
You must tell your aunt their worth and then sit tight till bankruptcy see what happens

why assume something sinister? Her children didn’t want them and she doesn’t have room in her house to store unwanted items. Most likely, her next thought was to sell them on eBay or something just like how everyone on mumsnet tells you to do

Well if a relative had given me some special items, googling cost wouldn’t be my first thought!

I’m a bit confused as I don’t think the OP does want to sell them as she repeatedly discusses the time and effort to do so.

Offer to Aunt and take off any costs, she will probably be very touched and tell you to keep it.

Actually, I do think this is probably the right course of action ... in normal circumstances with normal families.

Here, this would harden the hoarding tendencies (as other posters have noted) and give rise to huge fuss between the wider family as to who was owed what out of it.

Also, the toys aren’t my aunt’s. She didn’t purchase them, or ever store them, or have anything to do with them except suggest she transport them to us (with other stuff of varying usefulness).

Thanks for all the replies. I’m afraid I have discarded the ones about me being a shitty person with a wrong moral compass grin.

Yeh - just go ahead ...

Would you think it okay to keep the cash if you had been given, say, a box of costume jewellery which was thought to be worthless, but turned out to be valuable?

Here's a simple solution, then, PersonaNonGarter, given that you are fairly certain your SR is going to be made bankrupt: offer the toys up to the trustee in bankruptcy and leave it to them to sort out who gets the cash.

I received an unsolicited box of toys. I got them because aunt was trying to help clear the property ahead of eviction. These toys would now cost me time and money to deal with which ever option I choose (unless I stick them in a cupboard).

FFS - just tell your aunt she has given you £2k worth of toys. Let her male the choice as to what to do

Are they toys that used to belong to your Aunt & SR? Did they play with them?

(and stop pretending you are being thoughtful and acting in aunt’s best interests because, you know, she has hoarding tendencies)

Ah, so you are relying on yourself keeping quiet and not letting SR know he has given away assets worth up to £2,000. How very moral of you, OP.

If you don’t have entitled, spongy relatives, I can see this would look strange. If I tell him the value of the toys, he will expect me to transfer that, in cash, today. And when I don’t, he will demand and call and pester me to sell them (my own expense) and transfer the money. All the while being abused for selling family heirlooms from my aunt. It would be hell.

Whatever happens, I need to decide on a course of action before I tell SR.

Yes, I about to make the same suggestion as roundaboutthetown. You could maybe call the Insolvency Service and ask for advice.

You mustn’t tell your aunt anything. What a load of claptrap.

You’ve been given a gift. You don’t want it. What happens to everyone when this happens...? You don’t call up the gift giver and say ‘I don’t want this...what do you want me to do with it?’ You either sell it or regift it (to charity of someone you know will like it). You don’t sell it and then give the gifter the money back.

Sell the damn toys and enrich your lives with the money. Had the other side of your hoarding family done so throughout their lives they wouldn’t be in this mess now. Don’t get drawn into it, and don’t live your life by their rules.

And to the poster who keeps banging on about the bankruptcy trustee...family members don’t know when other family members will go into bankruptcy. It’s none of your business OP, sell the toys. No one will be approaching you for he money and, should that unlikely scenario happen, then just explain your children didn’t want the old toys so you sold them and spent the money. That will be the end of the matter.

If your aunt ad nothing to do with the toys and never owned them...then how did she give them to you? Does SR not even know his belongings have been given to you?