Can children be 'bad'?

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Posting here for traffic .

History: my DD1(10) is autistic (high functioning) and as such a natural target for bullies. I've already had to move her to another school because of it and will have to do so again. She is kind and loving and just wants to be friends with anyone. She is unable to read body language and doesn't understand why people do the things they do, ie be your friend one day but then want to play with different friends the next day. She sees it as a personal attack if a friend chooses to play with someone else.

Anyway, she had this friend (HC - Horrible Child), also 10. HC would be all lovely to DD one day and DD would be so happy, and then be really really nasty to her the next. This carried on for a long while and DD often came home in tears. Then HC teamed up with the school bullies and things turned really nasty. They'd surround DD at school so the teachers couldn't see and then hit her and push her about, calling her names etc. HC came over for dinner one day, and would take stuff off my DDs, saying that she was the guest and could take whatever she wanted. I never allowed her over again.

The bullying got to a stage where I told the school I will be going to the police, and I did. The main bully vanished from school overnight - they'd moved to a different country, and the others let off for a few weeks. HC, however, still carried on being nasty. It ended up in her 'D'M accusing me of allsorts, as her little darling would never bully anyone, and marching into the school office and demanding to speak to the head teacher. It was agreed between everyone, DD included, that the two girls would stay the hell away from each other. They have been kept apart at school by the teachers.

HC still tried to upset DD though - would follow her around and make na-na-na noises etc. DD did as we all suggested and just walked away. HC (in my opinion) didn't like not being able to upset DD any more, and then barged her way in and tried to come in between DD and her best friend (M). She basically won't let DD anywhere near M.

DD now says she's friends with HC again (mostly because she doesn't want to lose her friendship with M), and that HC has changed (in the space of 2 weeks ). She's begging me to give HC another chance, but I know that HC will turn on her again. I cannot make DD understand that HC is NOT her friend, but seems to get some perverse pleasure from hurting and upsetting her. This week HC was nice to her, next week she'll be nasty again and I'll be left to pick up the pieces.

People tell me HC is only 10, and is being a typical child. However, I disagree. I think HC knows exactly what she's doing. I think she's a nasty piece of work and I don't want DD anywhere near her. But I can't get DD to understand that.

Do you think a child can be inherently 'bad'? Or am I over reacting? And how the hell do I get DD to stay away from HC?

Whoops, sorry, didn't mean for it to be so long.

Sorry your daughter is going through this. I don’t think it’s really that helpful to ask if a child can be inherently bad. The fact is this child has a proven track record of hurting your daughter.

There may be something going on in her home life that makes her behave the way she does, you don’t know. I don’t really understand the reason you are asking the question

No, kids are not generally inherently bad. That's not helpful at all. It's just perception. "HC" might think your DD is difficult if she is possessive and upset if HC tries to play with other children, for example.
I find it rarely helps if parents get involved; as here, the kids often sort it out more quickly between themselves.

@FloatingthroughSpace - the kids often sort it out more quickly between themselves.

Except here the 'sorting out' is done by HC hitting and punching DD, and DD unable to defend herself. She also doesn't want to upset anyone, so doesn't stand up for herself. That's just the way her brain works.

"HC" might think your DD is difficult if she is possessive and upset if HC tries to play with other children, for example.

Yes, that's a perfectly good excuse for HC to bully my child

I don't like the sound of HC. There are people in this world who just love to bully and take advantage of anyone vulnerable and they start as children.
Can your dd try to establish her friendship with M away from HC? Maybe play dates that don't include HC?
I would try to arm dd with some resilience and encourage her to see that a friend is someone who is friendly to you and not nasty. Also that it's fine to tell you or a teacher if HC makes her unhappy

I dont think kids are bad in the sense of that's what they're destined to be. I do think some kids are major assholes though

I don't think children are inherently bad but having just watched documentaries on the Shanda sharer and skylar neece cases... I think some children need watching very closely and do have the capability of being far more horrific than we give children credit for and assume is possible

Of course some children are just inherently nasty or bad. Where do you think all the rapists, murderers,violent criminals and abusers of the venerable come from? These individuals are at the extreme end of the spectrum but even so they don't just spring fully formed from from under a rock.

With the amount of CF's and Narcissistic family members that seem to litter AIBU it's obvious that Nasty horrid people didn't just turn nasty once they hit adulthood. Many children hide/mask it well or their families gloss over it by not acknowledging their behaviour. Sometimes families know exactly what their children are like, but can't or won't do anything about it.

A bully may grow out of the behaviour as they become more socially adept or they may simply refine and hone their techniques into adulthood becoming the office bully or bully/abuse their partner or children or the venerable. Then again a child can just as easily suddenly grow out of a phase of bad behaviour, but sometimes a nasty child is a bully just because they are a nasty child and will most likely grow up to be a nasty adult.

Vulnerable ..... darn autocorrect.

I think children learn what they see and hear and experience. I dont think they’re “bad”, no. They make bad choices and get bad guidance sometimes...
I also can’t really believe that you’re labelling a child as “HC” for horrible child- she is a 10 year old child. I would have thought you of all parents would know that labels for children are rarely ever the full picture.

Of course some children are inherently "bad". All psychopaths are psychopaths from birth. Whether that psychopath goes to on to behave badly or not is a different matter, but some obviously do.

Why haven't your moved your daughter to a different school if she is having such a miserable time at her current one?

I think some kids are ‘bad’ from birth. Just like some kids are born psychopaths.

While most kids with these sorts of issues have been brought up in less than ideal environments which leads to formation of untoward begaviours/mental states it’s not always the case. There have been instances of psychopaths that have been born into very loving, stable families yet from the youngest age these tendencies have emerged with animals and children a lot younger/weaker than themselves (easy prey essentially) then they graduate into people who would be deemed their equals.

I don’t think it’s an all or nothing, some people are born psychopaths, some are born arseholes and some are born bullies etc. Obviously other people are not born as such but are made into these things due to treatment/experience/environment.

I don’t agree children are born “bad”. Some children have extreme streaks in them. Psychopathy for example, mentioned previously. Psychopaths are not born bad. Conditioning and the wrong kind of parenting makes them highly succeptible to becoming violent and callous. That’s not to say I’m laying blame as I imagine parenting such challenging children is extremely difficult and signs easily missed where a child Id good at masking.

I would say some children have additional personality challenges, which aren’t always addressed by their parents or society. HC is being allowed to be horrible both by her parents and by the school. She is learning that being horrible gets you what you want in life. She’s running through so many red lights. Unless she is stopped or decides to change her behaviour she will continue to be horrible as an adult.

I do hope for your dds sake that HC has turned over a new leaf. The school sounds pretty ineffectual at dealing with the situation. I’m horrified that a bunch of 10 yos are surrounding another child to obscure another beating your dd up. This is the behaviour of much older children, surely? My dd is also 10 btw.

Most people are a product of their environment and the interaction between biology and behaviours experiences from birth onwards. There could be a teeny percentage of outliers this doesn’t apply to- but the majority of people are made and moulded. And the child in the OP sounds like she is indeed made that way by the inability of her mum to help her see the link between her actions and behaviour and have consequences.

The problem is the family. She's a horrid child because her family is allowing / encouraging it in various ways.

Protect your child. Personally, I would threaten the horrid child and her family.

I think some children are like some adults: they catch on very quickly when there’s someone in their life they can easily manipulate and do so. I don’t necessarily think they know the long term damage it does. It’s still a horrible way to behave however, and no, there is no excuse for it even if your child is “annoying them” your daughter sounds lovely and I hope she finds a setting one day where she is accepted for exactly who she is and makes the friends she deserves.

There is a particularly horrible child in my child’s class. I hope one day they get some kind of comeuppance because I honestly think that is the only way they will change their way of thinking and in turn their behaviour. At the moment they’re absolutely vile.

Agree that some children are born with the potential to be bad, and upbringing often brings this out. As a PP said, shit people don't just spring out from under a rock.

I didn't think so until I met a ten year old who quote obviously is going to grow up with some very serious issues regarding coercive control and sexually inappropriate behaviour. Mum knows it too and is desperate to get help. Very sad.

YANBU some children are vile! She's not just a typical child she sounds like a right horrible little brat! I'm guessing the problem is her DM has let her get away with so much she's got that cocky "I can do whatever I want attitude" I'm going through a similar thing at the mo with my 6yo DD. It's heartbreaking. Just explain to her that a true friend will never ever make her feel the way HC makes her feel. Unfortunately it's always the kind DC that are targets for these precious little fucking gremlins

No, I don’t think a 10yo can be just ‘bad’. I’m sure this girl has qualities that you have not seen.

Doesn’t mean you need to put up with her behaviour, though.

I do think some narcissists start early
. Definitely those traits in a girl that has attempted to bully my DD off and on for years.

I used to think no, children can't be intrinsically bad. Then I met my child's bully. He picks on children who are a few years younger and/or have SEN, and winds them up in a very devious way - he used to do more overt stuff too but the older he gets (he's late primary age now) the more devious and manipulative he gets. There's something cold and unfeeling about him. I guess all psychopaths were children once....

I agree that it's a combination of how they are naturally and bad parenting.

Ds has someone he knows who I genuinely believe has no feelings at all, no remorse. He has done some horrible horrible things. I feel sad for the future ahead of him.

@RedDwarves - we will be moving in the next few months.

The family is what can be described (at the risk of being flamed) - trailer trash. The baby is always dirty with a snotty nose, HC still sucks her thumb, she always has head lice and spreads it to other children. The DM is coarse and wears the same clothes 2 weeks in a row. So it's probably the environment she is growing up in as well.

@Isadora2007 - I call her a horrible child because that's exactly what she is - she's a child who is horrible. I'm hardly going to call her sweet angel, am I? I take you don't have a DC who has been badly bullied? Else you wouldn't judge my choice of words .