Can children be 'bad'?

[WoofWoofMooWoof]

Posting here for traffic .

History: my DD1(10) is autistic (high functioning) and as such a natural target for bullies. I've already had to move her to another school because of it and will have to do so again. She is kind and loving and just wants to be friends with anyone. She is unable to read body language and doesn't understand why people do the things they do, ie be your friend one day but then want to play with different friends the next day. She sees it as a personal attack if a friend chooses to play with someone else.

Anyway, she had this friend (HC - Horrible Child), also 10. HC would be all lovely to DD one day and DD would be so happy, and then be really really nasty to her the next. This carried on for a long while and DD often came home in tears. Then HC teamed up with the school bullies and things turned really nasty. They'd surround DD at school so the teachers couldn't see and then hit her and push her about, calling her names etc. HC came over for dinner one day, and would take stuff off my DDs, saying that she was the guest and could take whatever she wanted. I never allowed her over again.

The bullying got to a stage where I told the school I will be going to the police, and I did. The main bully vanished from school overnight - they'd moved to a different country, and the others let off for a few weeks. HC, however, still carried on being nasty. It ended up in her 'D'M accusing me of allsorts, as her little darling would never bully anyone, and marching into the school office and demanding to speak to the head teacher. It was agreed between everyone, DD included, that the two girls would stay the hell away from each other. They have been kept apart at school by the teachers.

HC still tried to upset DD though - would follow her around and make na-na-na noises etc. DD did as we all suggested and just walked away. HC (in my opinion) didn't like not being able to upset DD any more, and then barged her way in and tried to come in between DD and her best friend (M). She basically won't let DD anywhere near M.

DD now says she's friends with HC again (mostly because she doesn't want to lose her friendship with M), and that HC has changed (in the space of 2 weeks ). She's begging me to give HC another chance, but I know that HC will turn on her again. I cannot make DD understand that HC is NOT her friend, but seems to get some perverse pleasure from hurting and upsetting her. This week HC was nice to her, next week she'll be nasty again and I'll be left to pick up the pieces.

People tell me HC is only 10, and is being a typical child. However, I disagree. I think HC knows exactly what she's doing. I think she's a nasty piece of work and I don't want DD anywhere near her. But I can't get DD to understand that.

Do you think a child can be inherently 'bad'? Or am I over reacting? And how the hell do I get DD to stay away from HC?

I believe that children can do bad things, terrible, unfathomable things. But the question is not, "what is wrong with them?" but "what happened to them?". Even the worse of us can be helped with education and compassion to change.

If you are right, and there is evidence that some children are just bad, then why don't we incarcerate them before they act on their innate Badness?

Whether or not they are inherently bad they can certainly behave in horrible, awful ways - even at 10. YANBU to be concerned.

The age of criminal responsibility in this country is 10. By that age children are expected to be able to tell good from bad unless there is something really very wrong with them.

And I don't believe there is a child born who has not been taught, either by parents/carers or, horribly, through bitter personal experience, that hurting people, making people unhappy, is bad.

I had a friend who was abused as a child, and who was one of the best people I have ever known: kind, empathic, sensible, mother to three terrific children who are now terrific adults and parents. Having a horrible time yourself is no real reason to give someone else a horrible time.

My mother was one of eight children, all brought up in the same home by the same parents, of whom one (as mum sadly said) was just nasty from the very start, the sort of person who enjoys hurting the younger ones and has to be kept away from them. He eventually ran away with the money they'd saved up for all the children to have a bit of to help them when they left home, and went to America to dodge the draft for WWII, and on the whole his siblings felt that it was good riddance.

Some people are just bad by the time they are ten, if not sooner, no matter what they have going for them; some people are just good, by the same age, no matter what they have going against them.

I do hope that the move of home and school helps the OP's DD to have a better life.

Is it a matter of nature vs nurture? Nurture certainly plays a big part, but like @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime said - some people just seem to be bad, no matter the circumstances they grew up in. It seems to be part of their nature.

Some children are very unpleasant but I wouldn’t say they are necessarily bad - when individuals are still children I think there’s still hope that can learn how to be nice. Interestingly as PPs have mentioned criminal responsibility and Jamie Bulger, that’s quite culturally specific, look up Silje Redegard as a counter example from Norway.

I think young children who are actually ‘bad’ are few and far between - I’m sure there are some kids who are essentially psychopaths as there are adult psychopaths and they could well show those behaviours from childhood, but tbh I think the kind of bullying and meanness that goes on in school does not dictate that a child will actually be a ‘bad’ adult. If people make an effort they could turn out alright - not that I think that’s something OP should have to be doing in this scenario.

I find it hard to credit that any child old enough to be out without adults (I assume there was no adult around when these five and six year olds left another child naked to die in the snow) in Norway would not know perfectly well that the cold kills you, and also that killing someone is not a good thing to do.

All this story does for me is indicate that children can be bad at the age of five or six as well as at ten.

In my view, yes, some kids are bad and grow into bad adults.

Actually, talking about nature vs nurture - my DSis has two boys. They both grew up in the same house with the same parents.

My ex BIL turned out to be very abusive and put my DSis in hospital for 3 weeks after she found out he had been having an affair. This final beating happened in front of my nephews.

Nephew 1 (16) is the sweetest, most helpful, kind generous young man you'll ever meet. He tried to stop his DF from hurting his DM and got punched for it.

Nephew 2 (10) turned nasty against my DSis, moved in with his DF and the OW, and hasn't wanted anything to do with my DSis in almost 2 years.

So, is he just like his dad? He saw what his 'D'F did to his DM, and yet still chose his DF over his DM, and has turned out to be just as nasty as his DF.

So, they both had the same nurture, therefore it can be concluded that it is in his nature, no?

Yes some kids are just plain bad. As has been mentioned here a few times, dysfunctional adults don't appear overnight.

Is HC bad? She might not if she had been brought up with some care but she sounds really awful and I can't see much hope of her changing.

You can't conclude that because one nephew turned out like his father that it is inevitably in his nature, and not the other nephew. They did not have the same "nurture" despite being in the same household. They are different ages for a start, and different sibling order. Even twins don't have exactly the same nurture, and could be treated very differently by the same parents.

Some one up thread explained it well. All children are born with potential, and are then affected by their environment. It's far too simplistic to say it's either nature or nurture.

@woofwoof, no, no it can’t. They’re different people and people react differently to things. They’ve both seem something that children should not be subjected to and they will deal with it differently. To label him as “just like his father” is unhelpful and I hope he doesn’t hear people say that

@Strongmummy - unfortunately, from a young age, he showed the same traits as his DF. He's just as selfish, self centred and obsessive. My Dsis tried her best.

Kids are default evil, like humans as a whole. They are the dictionary definition of psychopaths. It is outside influence that alters that and helps them learn empathy and compassion etc.

If they miss that influence and the right time in their lives, they end up horrible little arseholes and can be spiteful, evil etc.

Arsehole adults were arsehole kids normally too.

Woofwoof
There is evidence that incidents which happen during pregnancy and during your early development can impact your coping style, and therefore behaviour. It isn't fair to say this amounts to a "choice" of behaviour. It's more a combination of genetic inheritance, prenatal exposure to toxins, and early experience.

For example, a person whose parent drinks alcohol copiously during pregnancy may get fetal alcohol syndrome. However there isn't a direct association between the number of units of alcohol you drank and the severity of the FAS. There's a correlation, but not a linear relationship.
Similarly, if you are severely stressed during pregnancy your baby will be exposed to your stress hormones, and in some babies that leaves them restless and hard to settle.
Siblings exposed to domestic violence, even witnessing the same event, will be differently impacted as anyone who adopts siblings will be able to tell you. For example, if dv worsens over time the second child may be worse affected if there were not as many incidents while the first child was a baby and toddler. Or if it's consistent, and the mother escapes with kids when second is 3 months old and first is 2, first is likely to be worse affected as they had a longer exposure.

The point being, it's rarely as simple as an evil kid born that way to a completely normal loving family, and nurtured and guided in an ideal way, though that does appear to happen very very occasionally (thinking of that kid who stabbed the teacher in class, for example).

As far as I can tell from what scientists who have made a study of just this question say (using pairs of identical twins in their research, for instance) they seem to be saying that it is about fifty/fifty nature/nurture.

That makes sense to me, more or less. I mean, if someone has an essentially nasty nature but very good nurture, he or she may turn out just fine, and if someone has an essentially sweet nature and terrible, abusive nurture he or she may also turn out fine; but equally either one of them might turn out horrible.

I happen never to have met anyone who was a horrible twelve-year-old and turned out to be a very nice person at twenty-five, or the other way round, (anything can happen in between and teenage doesn't count!) but that doesn't prove it can't happen, either.

It makes me so sad sometimes when I hear the way some parents speak to their DC. Can't help but think that child could've had a chance to be an actual decent person with different parents, but instead they'll probably grow up to treat their DC the same way.

NO i dont like

@WoofWoofMooWoof

I also have a child on the spectrum, and it's absolutely brutal what she had to go through at school.

We ended up moving her from one primary (this was after I had pinned the headmistress against the wall in her office and asked her ''Is THIS scary ?? after I witnessed, yet again, a NC shove my child as hard as they could at the wall outside school. For absolutely NO reason. AGAIN. Then, as she got up, pinned her to the wall spitting nasty, vindictive threats about what tomorrow would bring ! After I took my bleeding child straight back into the school, the headmistress had the audacity to say, and I quote ''Oh, Mrs Updown, You're exaggerating! I'm quite sure it was accidental !, and your DC is FINE, I'm SURE she isn't scared of HC at all ! This was the umpteenth time I'd had to report verbal and physical bullying, from the same HC !)

Before DC started at the new school, I told her ''Forget everything I told you about ''sticks and stones'' and never hitting back. From now on, if anyone calls you names I want you to call them worse ones back, and if anyone hits/shoves/punches/trips/slaps/kicks you, then you hit them TWICE AS HARD BACK , but you NEVER be the one to hit or call names first !

She did have one or two 'scuffles', but no-one DARED to keep doing/saying nasty things ! There are some 'bright sides' to having a DC who takes every instruction literally !

I don't advocate violence, but I do believe in defending yourself.

@WoofWoofMooWoof

And in answer to your question ''Can a child be bad ?''

YES

YES they CAN

The same NC who made my DD's life HELL, did the SAME thing to others ALL through secondary school too (fortunately, a different secondary from my DD). This NC is now a nasty adult too. (She had a normal two parent family upbringing, and has a lovely brother who also hates her. Absolutely NO reason behind her venom, she just likes being vicious)

Yes I believe they can be. The killers of little James Bulger (RIP) spring to mind.

Zombie

So the old nature/nurture debate then?

People are their genetics plus the environment around them. Some come from dreadful abuse and trauma which affects behaviours etc

The mother of this girl doesn't sound wonderful, so I think therein may be the problem.
Children learn by example and by being disciplined when they do wrong. If the mother is refusing to believe her little darling is capable of bullying, then the child won't learn any better.

HC sounds like a little bitch. I'd just firmly remind your DD that the SCHOOL has said they are to keep away from her and she needs to do as she is told.