Can children be 'bad'?

[WoofWoofMooWoof]

Posting here for traffic .

History: my DD1(10) is autistic (high functioning) and as such a natural target for bullies. I've already had to move her to another school because of it and will have to do so again. She is kind and loving and just wants to be friends with anyone. She is unable to read body language and doesn't understand why people do the things they do, ie be your friend one day but then want to play with different friends the next day. She sees it as a personal attack if a friend chooses to play with someone else.

Anyway, she had this friend (HC - Horrible Child), also 10. HC would be all lovely to DD one day and DD would be so happy, and then be really really nasty to her the next. This carried on for a long while and DD often came home in tears. Then HC teamed up with the school bullies and things turned really nasty. They'd surround DD at school so the teachers couldn't see and then hit her and push her about, calling her names etc. HC came over for dinner one day, and would take stuff off my DDs, saying that she was the guest and could take whatever she wanted. I never allowed her over again.

The bullying got to a stage where I told the school I will be going to the police, and I did. The main bully vanished from school overnight - they'd moved to a different country, and the others let off for a few weeks. HC, however, still carried on being nasty. It ended up in her 'D'M accusing me of allsorts, as her little darling would never bully anyone, and marching into the school office and demanding to speak to the head teacher. It was agreed between everyone, DD included, that the two girls would stay the hell away from each other. They have been kept apart at school by the teachers.

HC still tried to upset DD though - would follow her around and make na-na-na noises etc. DD did as we all suggested and just walked away. HC (in my opinion) didn't like not being able to upset DD any more, and then barged her way in and tried to come in between DD and her best friend (M). She basically won't let DD anywhere near M.

DD now says she's friends with HC again (mostly because she doesn't want to lose her friendship with M), and that HC has changed (in the space of 2 weeks ). She's begging me to give HC another chance, but I know that HC will turn on her again. I cannot make DD understand that HC is NOT her friend, but seems to get some perverse pleasure from hurting and upsetting her. This week HC was nice to her, next week she'll be nasty again and I'll be left to pick up the pieces.

People tell me HC is only 10, and is being a typical child. However, I disagree. I think HC knows exactly what she's doing. I think she's a nasty piece of work and I don't want DD anywhere near her. But I can't get DD to understand that.

Do you think a child can be inherently 'bad'? Or am I over reacting? And how the hell do I get DD to stay away from HC?

@ninja that's exactly how my child's 'friend' is. Unbelievably manipulative. Getting worse. Constantly playing the victim.

@kimmy3001 - so sorry to hear your DD is going through the same. It can make us feel so frustrated as parents - hurting for our DC and having to pick up the pieces .

Well, with that picture, surely you can see her environment may have a lot to do with her behaviour?

She may have been as ‘good’ as your child if she’d had the same love and care.

She's begging me to give HC another chance, but I know that HC will turn on her again.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I don't believe that there is any evidence that people are born bad. There's lots of evidence that our environment has an impact on our personality and behaviour.

Scientistic I wonder if it's the same child! I really hope this one isn't around my DC as teenagers because I can imagine him telling them to harm themselves etc.. he's just a child but I feel SO uneasy around him.

Sorry to hear about all the people whose DC are being bullied. Wish there was something we could do. The whole reason I moved my DDs to this particular school is because they're supposed to have a 0% tolerance for bullying. Yeah right .

YANBU - HC and her mother sound truly awful.

Some kids are really unpleasant. Not sure of the cause... Frankly, even if there's a reason it is never an excuse for bullying and torturing a child.

I have ASD, I was horribly bullied in school by someone like HC in your story. Caused massive distress over a number of years.

Frankly, the school should remove HC. She is a blue, her parents have no intention of stopping this behaviour. Your daughter is the victim, she shouldn't have to move schools because of HC.

"Trailer trash"? Are you based in the US?

@WoofWoofMooWoof thank you! You too! Your DD already sounds like a kind soul who will have a bright future. School bully's are awful. It's always amazed me how unbelievably cold some children can be. Is home environment a factor? Who knows. I live in a beautiful place. My DD school is right next to the beach in an amazing area (we recently moved here 6 months ago for a better life ironically) I just think some children are little arseholes regardless of anything else. I for one would definitely pull my DC up on their behaviour if I found out they was treating someone like that. I wouldn't be making excuses for them

I feel the same @ninja.

, kids are not generally inherently bad. That's not helpful at all. It's just perception. "HC" might think your DD is difficult if she is possessive and upset if HC tries to play with other children, for example.
I find it rarely helps if parents get involved; as here, the kids often sort it out more quickly between themselves.

There's always someone that comes out with victim blaming shit. And it dangerous to say kids will sort it out...not if a bully is involved they won't. I can only surmise people with these views have never had to watch their child's self esteem being slowly destroyed by a bully.

There are definitely evil adults, and they don't spring forth aged 18 after having been lovely up until then. The younger they are the less culpable they are, but at 10, they certainly have an appreciation for the pain they're causing. I don't think home life is an excuse either, although it's certainly a reason. But there are tons of abused people who don't grow up to be horrific human beings - somewhere in their hearts people make a choice IMO, either to align themselves with their abusers and to dish out abuse to others in turn, or they take the scarier step to reject that way of being and they try to avoid conflict and at the very least not to shit all over other people the way they were shit on. People who had a nice childhood don't have to make this decision so early, they have so many more chances to learn to be good, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have been OK if they'd been given a better example to follow in early life. But on some level I just stop caring - evil is as evil does. I'm really sorry your DD is going through this.

My sympathies for anyone on this thread whose child is being bullied or has been bullied in the past. Of course children can be born bad. Society just has a huge taboo surrounding this. But at the end if the day it doesn't matter to the bullied child if its nature or nurture or both in the bully, they are the ones that suffer regardless.

On what grounds did the mother of HC go into school to complain about the situation? If it was as clearly one sided as you state? I'm not suggesting your DD is lying, and of course the bullying is unacceptable. I didn't mean in my earlier post that bullying is excused if your DD inadvertently made HC's life difficult by over reacting if she wanted to play with someone else. It's natural for you to filter that through your understanding of DD's motives and her autism, but HC will not have that perspective.

Let's look at it from HC's point of view. She is a bit vulnerable herself and poorly guided in life, as you say. She plays with DD, they enjoy it. A few days later she wants to play with Child X one break time. DD cries and says HC is being mean to her. This is confusing, pressurising and unfair to HC who was not at that point trying to be mean to DD. She just wanted to play with Child X today. She may even have invited DD to join in the game but sometimes autistic girls want to play in a particular way and will reject offers to adapt that play. It is one of the reasons why autistic kids friendships often break down.

Imagine HC goes home and tells her mum that DD cried and made her feel bad for not playing with her. As HC's mum you'd feel defensive of your child.

Meantime, your DD has come home and said "HC made me cry at school and wouldn't play with me" and you feel defensive too.

None of this excuses the later nastiness and certainly not the ganging up bullying. But it's what I meant about children not being evil and who is horrid being in part down to perception. Let's imagine that a teacher steps in and forces HC to play with DD in that first day, that exacerbates the feelings of dissonance in relation to being friends with DD, for example, because we all should be free to play with whomever we like. HC did nothing wrong wanting to play more widely. Your daughter's autism, which is neither her fault nor HC's, will be a contributor to her social understanding and that contributes to her social experiences.

I think it's very sad that your DD is unhappy. She wants to give it another try. I think all you can say is "be careful". Is school working on social understanding with your dd, as they should be given that it is a core area of need in autism? This might help this situation not arise with other children in future, and give DD the tools to defend herself (in the very early stages, not from the serious bullying you describe) better as well.

You just never know what's going on in children's home lives. I went to a convent school for girls and one of the girls there was really nasty to me, though like the girl you're talking about she could be nice at times too. I ended up hating her, not surprisingly.

I found out later that her mother had been suffering from cancer and had subsequently died. So I felt awful for previously hating her.

That doesn't mean that your DD should put up with being bullied by this girl. But it's far too simplistic to say a child is just bad, there's invariably more to it than that.

My DD1 (9 has SEN, suffers from adoption related trauma. She struggles socially and finds it very hard to make friends, hence she isn't invited to parties or on play dates. But it's not just a case of the other children being unkind to her (though she does get excluded from games). I've seen when we have friends here for play dates that she will refuse to play the games that the other girls want to play, hence they gravitate to DD2 (6), who is popular at school because she's easy for them to be around.

She also doesn't like her one close friend wanting to play with another friend so she then feels excluded. She often tries to muscle in on DD2 and her friends and they resent it too. She therefore does find herself on her own.

The school have a buddy system so that has helped her at play time. She's also been a buddy for younger children herself, which has helped a lot.

I'm so sorry your DD is going through this. It's heartbreaking.

I was all for beliving that kids arent born bad until my dc had to go through primary with one particular child...
From reception, hitting and disruptive in class, saying horrible things to kids, making fun of losing a grandparent, picking on weaknesses, saying kids are no good at anything,constantly wanting a fight, punching younger kids, baits more confidident and outspoken kids to try and start an argument. Found to be at fault, denies everything ( supported in this by older siblings 😳 who usually saw incidents), sly kicks to the head at sports, goes out of his way so spoil other children’s fun.
Mother lives very much through the reflected “glory” of her kids on facebook... apparently nothing medically wrong with him...
School appear to finally have got a grip of it now and kids have accepted thats how he is and to ignore him... which has resulted in his DM complaining to school he has no friends 😳
He is genuinely unpleasant, acts a lot in front of adults.....it makes me shudder.

somewhere in their hearts people make a choice IMO, either to align themselves with their abusers and to dish out abuse to others in turn, or they take the scarier step to reject that way of being

This ascribes adult resources and perception to a child.

People who had a nice childhood don't have to make this decision so early

None of us have this decision to make. Our personality is a series of decisions that we make constantly throughout our infant- and childhood, "How do I get my needs met?".

But on some level I just stop caring

Imagine having to make that decision at age 2 in order to survive.

I agree with others who have pointed to infancy and early childhood trauma which continues into later life, as the root of a lot of harmful behaviour. However, this doesn't mean your DD shouldn't be protected. It sounds really hard to help her see this especially as she's scared to be friendless - I'm sorry if this is unhelpful/you've tried this tack but might it work - in an age appropriate way - to help her establish boundaries, ie if this child ever does xyz again, you tell her it's not ok, you don't want to be friends with people who hurt you, and you walk away to the teacher? That way, you don't jave to battle right now over the giving her another chance issue but you have something in place for if/when she turns nasty again?

@kimmy3001 - I for one would definitely pull my DC up on their behaviour if I found out they was treating someone like that. I wouldn't be making excuses for them.

My DDs know that there'll be hell to pay if I ever found out they treated anyone badly.

@FloatingthroughSpace - It's not quite like that though. HC will be lovely to DD and hug her goodbye after school, and then first thing next morning, DD will say hi to her, and HC will push her away, call her horrible, pull faces at her, call her names and, when DD is in tears, walk away grinning. The Family Support Worker has interviewed other DC in the class and they've all told her this is what happens. And that HC refuses to leave DD alone, but follows her around making fun of her .

It also doesn't help that DD is one of the top students in the class academically. I think HC might be a bit jealous about that.

@Lizzie48 - the school did arrange for DD to play more with younger children (or said they would), but it never came to be, unfortunately. She gets along well with younger DC as she can 'mother' them.

Yes, they can.

Being nasty to animals is a sign. I've seen a child be very nasty to one of my dogs and after that he was just as bad to me. Both times he knew what he was doing.

There's nothing I can do about the child, but I do wonder what will happen with him later.

Some children are just bad eggs even if they come from nice families and comfortable homes. Most frustrating are parents who enable horrid behaviour. You can write off the "trashy" ones, but there are those well-educated, outspoken and influential.

windycindy

Imagine having to make that decision at age 2 in order to survive.

Supposing I could remember being 2, I wouldn't have to imagine. My mother was abusive and my family on both sides is littered with abuse and dysfunction. Some of those people have come through abuse far worse than mine and yet make the world a better place by being in it. Some people have gone on to fuck up their children in exactly the same way as they were fucked up themselves. Those who are my age why I grew up with I observed were basically the same as children as they now are as adults. Maybe what they need is sympathy but may I suggest that they should be getting that from professionals and not from the OP, who has a vulnerable child to look after, or from people like me, who by the end of childhood have long used up a lifetime's supply of whatever sympathy these people deserve.

@toomuchtooold - so sorry to hear what you've been through .

And yes, I have a small measure of sympathy for HC, but I have to put my own DD first. She is my priority and she is being hurt, so I really don't have any energy to waste trying to figure out why HC is the way she is. I am being mama bear protecting my young.

The Jamie Bulger murderers were bad. No question.

So yes, children can be “bad” no matter how uncomfortable some adults feel about labelling them as such. And it is not all down to nurture, either - nature plays a part. To argue otherwise is erroneous.