Can children be 'bad'?

[WoofWoofMooWoof]

Posting here for traffic .

History: my DD1(10) is autistic (high functioning) and as such a natural target for bullies. I've already had to move her to another school because of it and will have to do so again. She is kind and loving and just wants to be friends with anyone. She is unable to read body language and doesn't understand why people do the things they do, ie be your friend one day but then want to play with different friends the next day. She sees it as a personal attack if a friend chooses to play with someone else.

Anyway, she had this friend (HC - Horrible Child), also 10. HC would be all lovely to DD one day and DD would be so happy, and then be really really nasty to her the next. This carried on for a long while and DD often came home in tears. Then HC teamed up with the school bullies and things turned really nasty. They'd surround DD at school so the teachers couldn't see and then hit her and push her about, calling her names etc. HC came over for dinner one day, and would take stuff off my DDs, saying that she was the guest and could take whatever she wanted. I never allowed her over again.

The bullying got to a stage where I told the school I will be going to the police, and I did. The main bully vanished from school overnight - they'd moved to a different country, and the others let off for a few weeks. HC, however, still carried on being nasty. It ended up in her 'D'M accusing me of allsorts, as her little darling would never bully anyone, and marching into the school office and demanding to speak to the head teacher. It was agreed between everyone, DD included, that the two girls would stay the hell away from each other. They have been kept apart at school by the teachers.

HC still tried to upset DD though - would follow her around and make na-na-na noises etc. DD did as we all suggested and just walked away. HC (in my opinion) didn't like not being able to upset DD any more, and then barged her way in and tried to come in between DD and her best friend (M). She basically won't let DD anywhere near M.

DD now says she's friends with HC again (mostly because she doesn't want to lose her friendship with M), and that HC has changed (in the space of 2 weeks ). She's begging me to give HC another chance, but I know that HC will turn on her again. I cannot make DD understand that HC is NOT her friend, but seems to get some perverse pleasure from hurting and upsetting her. This week HC was nice to her, next week she'll be nasty again and I'll be left to pick up the pieces.

People tell me HC is only 10, and is being a typical child. However, I disagree. I think HC knows exactly what she's doing. I think she's a nasty piece of work and I don't want DD anywhere near her. But I can't get DD to understand that.

Do you think a child can be inherently 'bad'? Or am I over reacting? And how the hell do I get DD to stay away from HC?

WoofWoofMooWoof, obviously I don't know either nephew, and how horribly sad they had to witness that- and shocking that the younger was allowed to live with his father afterwards, too.
Is it possible (again with disclaimer of not knowing any of the parties) that the younger boy was coerced by his father into believing another version of events? DV can be so damaging to children.

In somewhat appalled that know this child ones from a tough background, and knowing your nephews witnessed horrible domestic abuse you would ask this question. Yes, I think some people are born bad. You are using examples of children experiencing neglect and abuse. And the way you speak about your nephew is really sad. Everyone responds to trauma differently, but trauma changes the brain. That's science. Nothing to do with being inheritantly bad.

We don't excuse adult criminals by saying "they had inadequate parenting". People are not solely the product of their education, they have their own character. I see this in my two sons, who are very different even though they grew up in the same environment, and have a small age gap.

This is true for the better and the worse - some people grow up in terrible environments and transcend that to become wonderful people. Some grow up very privileged in a loving family and don't. Some may be mentally ill (sociopaths).

So yes, I think some kids can be nasty because it's in their character to be, and it's not always due to the way they were bought up. I'd also like to point out that children, even very young children, have been involved in cases of torture and murder.

You're doing the right thing by keeping your child away from this bully, anyway ; regardless of the reason for her behaviour, the impact on your DD is the same. So in the end it doesn't really matter why she's a little & @€%, it only matters that she is and should be kept away.

She sees it as a personal attack if a friend chooses to play with someone else

I am not defending the other child but this can also be an issue, that certainly needs to be explored. Sometimes the child you see as difficult may see your child as being difficult.

@SilentIsla

The Jamie Bulger murderers were bad. No question.

So yes, children can be “bad” no matter how uncomfortable some adults feel about labelling them as such. And it is not all down to nurture, either - nature plays a part. To argue otherwise is erroneous.

Even then I think they were a product of their upbringing and clearly one had the ability to reform and the other seemingly hasn't.

Kids take after their parents, but there's also the environmental factors. Some kids change because of what they experience at school from teachers or other kids. But I don't think any child is born "bad". They may of course have the propensity for serious mental health issues. Even the most "evil" people are clearly ill, people with normal mental health don't bully, rape or assault people.

I do think some children are quite nasty and manipulative TBH. They seem to start quite early, and 9 seems to be an age where they can become quite unpleasant .I think it may be hormones kicking in early,some problems at home manifesting themselves .Just dont know really .Often they seem to smell out quiet children or ones with SN . Can you just ask the child M over on their own? Or maybe speak to the Teacher at all?

And for the record, the age of criminal responsibility in England is lower than everywhere else in Europe. In most countries it is 12 or 14.

Piers Morgan's documentary on an American boy called Paris, who, at the age of 13 killed his little sister, to me supports the theory of being born capable of evil. If psychopaths have a differently wired brain which they do, then they must always have lacked empathy.

I don’t think children who bully are necessarily bad, although they are doing a bad thing. I bullied other children when I was in school. I don’t bully anybody now, and I teach my children about being kind to others and helping other people.

I think it’s more likely that this child either has something making her unhappy or she is overindulged by a mother who thinks she can do no wrong. Of course we can’t really know, but I think with the correct teaching and support this child would be able to learn how to interact more appropriately. It sounds like the school policies are not enforced well though if a big group of children regularly assaulted your daughter and not much was done about it. That must be so awful and frightening for her, totally unacceptable.

Oh I didn’t realise this was such an old thread!

Some kids are just vile i had a 10 year old threatening to scalp me granny came on the line and denied it happened apparently it was my son doing the threatening I told her xbox monitored underage chat users and she might want to pay closer attention I then got my child to create chat party's on the game and deny this child access because everytime he got into the game he screamed at my son to leave so I kicked him everytime apparently this was "evidence" of being a bully 🤔 no this was evidence my son doesn't have to put up with his crap

They went to high school together this child was used to getting his own way in primary school he played up and they would put him in a lower class with an ipad as punishment 🙄 high school they didn't he lasted a month his mom said the school was full of bullies and she withdrew him

Some parents don't get it I would have made him stay and had his rough edges knocked off instead she chose to pander to him and removed him this kid is bright he would have worked it out like everyone else

I think damaged childhoods can lead to very troubled lives, in which people behave badly, make poor choices etc but I also think some people are born with personality disorders and some are just ‘bad’.

I've worked with children and am qualified in the field. Yes, I believe 'some' children are inherently bad.
I have looked after hundreds of children and I only thought this about one child but he made the hair on the back of my neck stand up at 4 years old.
His mother and sister were scared of him already.
There were no issues at home, he just looked into your eyes like he was imagining how to kill you. He did many things to other children that were cold blooded and nasty.

As I say, I have only come across it once out of hundreds of children, but it was very disconcerting. I do expect to hear about him in the news at some point.

All that aside, I am so story to hear about your daughter. Being bullied is awful.

Ffs a zombie thread 🤦‍♀️

@Theunamedcat I just realised also. Haha

Gosh, things have moved on since this thread!

I ended up moving DDs to a different school - a small village school with only 99 pupils. They were so happy there and there were no bullies at all. They're now in their second year of high school at an excellent school with a zero bullying policy, which is upheld at all times. M is now DDs girlfriend, and DD has joined the LGBTQ club at school where she has a great group of friends.

Nephew 1 is still an outstanding young man. Nephew 2 hasn't spoken to my sister in years and his 'D'F is still just as nasty as always.

I have no idea how HC is doing and I don't care, frankly.

Aww that’s fantastic and lovely to have an update. Sometimes I think if a child is marked as an outcast/victim the best thing you can do is a totally fresh start in a new environment, where the child can gain confidence to move on.

ok aware this is now a zombie but was browsing and stumbled across the thread. first to the OP glad to hear your DD is now at a good school where she has been able to grow with confidence. its so hard when a child has additional needs. i don't agree that home environments are always to blame for how a person turns out as an adult. me and my sister were brought up in the same environment same parents etc. no way could we be described as a disfunctional family. i live alone and i think i am very well adjusted and like to think i am a good person to be around. i certainly try my best lol. my sister upon leaving home went totally off the rails she lurched from 1 bad relationship to another, tried to take her own life on more occasions than i care to remember, went on the game, started taking drugs and heavy drinking you name it she did it. i think as parents all you can do is try set them on the right path it is down to them once adults. i do agree though if HC has parents with the attitude that they don't care how she behaves that will obviously mean that she will carry such behaviours to adulthood.

Yes I know of 2 kids who are bad through and through , and both mothers are totally blinkered to their little darlings behaviour