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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

International Men’s Day

127 replies

Pinkyponkcustard · 19/11/2018 14:14

I don’t get it! My work is making a big fuss out of this today but it honestly makes me roll my eyes in a company where most of the execs and senior management are men.

Am I missing something?! I thought the whole point of “days” was to talk about improving things/raising the profile of minority groups.

Happy to be educated out of my eye rolling!

OP posts:
Tiscold · 19/11/2018 16:35

But every day isn't international mens day is it? So is every single man, in the world, at an advantage every single day of the year?

SleepySofa · 19/11/2018 16:36

Yes, pretty much. It's not like they leave their inbuilt privilege at home some days.

Tiscold · 19/11/2018 16:37

So is it international mens day for the countless men who kill themselves, every day?
Is it international mens day for the men who feel they can't express their feelings for fear of ridicule?
Is it international mens day for the men who fear violence?

PurpleDaisies · 19/11/2018 16:38

Yes, pretty much. It's not like they leave their inbuilt privilege at home some days.

And that protects them from depression, prostate cancer and testicular cancer?

Everanewbie · 19/11/2018 16:40

I don't think IMD is in anyway minimising the hardships and injustices suffered by women. It is about raising awareness of male cancers and that there is support for men suffering with mental health problems.

I really don't like this 'whataboutism' that people continually raise. The campaign to close the gender pay gap and fight against domestic violence are not undermined by discussing testicular cancer and the pressures on men. They are no way mutually exclusive.

IWD and IMD both have a place and are both equally valid.

MephistophelesApprentice · 19/11/2018 16:40

Always remember - a homeless man dying on the streets is more privileged than a feminist with a grudge.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/11/2018 16:42

Sethis, I'm sure it does matter to many of them.

Some men clearly suffer because they don't fit into a society that has expectations of them as men. No one, certainly not feminists, would deny that. Which is why any specific "men's day" should focus on the issues around toxic expectations of men, imo. Really though, men should use their privilege to focus on this all the time. No need to restrict it to once a year.

IMD should not be a platform for anti-women activists who want to roll back the steps women have taken. I suspect that it often is.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/11/2018 16:43

Don't be so silly, MephistophelesApprentice, that's a complete and deliberate misunderstanding of what privilege refers to. Which I suspect you are well aware of.

FekkoThePenguin · 19/11/2018 16:49

I haven’t seen any trans men held up as ‘inspirational’ or good role models though.

user1471517900 · 19/11/2018 16:50

Sethis - marvellous post there. Absolutely superb.

CheshireChat · 19/11/2018 16:51

What I've seen about IMD is fairly respectful to women, of course our side of the story is in the background but it's ok in this case.

Also men are slated for doing nothing, this is a platform to start changing toxic attitudes and this should hopefully benefit women in the same feminism benefits men.

Craft1905 · 19/11/2018 16:53

Okay, I'll bite. What struggles are specifically faced by men?

76% of suicides are men
85% of homeless are men
70% of murder victims are men
Men are 3.5 times more likely to be sent to prison than a woman committing the same offence
Prostate cancer deaths now exceed breast cancer deaths, and there is no govt backed screening programme in place.

I don't know how any of us with husbands, fathers, sons, brothers or male friends can be anti anything that highlights these issues. If one man goes for a prostate check of the back of IMD, then great.

It doesn't detract from women and their struggles at all.

And as for the oft spouted "every day is men's day", bloody grow up!

SneakyGremlins · 19/11/2018 16:58

I've lost five friends this year to suicide and attempted myself.

Anything that raises awareness of men's mental health is a plus in my opinion.

Everanewbie · 19/11/2018 16:58

Craft1905 well said

mostdays · 19/11/2018 16:59

Round of applause for craft

Sethis · 19/11/2018 17:01

Really though, men should use their privilege to focus on this all the time. No need to restrict it to once a year.

In what society, ever, have the privileged ever used their privilege to change the very nature of their identity?

Privilege maintains the status quo, and is only changed when the unprivileged get sufficiently numerous or angry about it.

Further, can't you say exactly the same about IWD, or Pride, or anything else? Why restrict that to one day, instead of improving women's rights or gay rights every day? Because every little helps, and costs nothing.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 17:02

What is it with the assumption that because I am a woman then I must have some good female friend(s) automatically on hand to talk to if I have problems or am worried about something? Newsflash: I don't.

I have autism and I have always struggled to make friends full stop tbh but I especially struggle to make female friends. I am not sure why however I have heard that it is not unusual for women on the spectrum to make and keep female friends. I have literally only ever had one female friend in my life and I certainly have none now. All of my other friends have all been male and somehow I doubt any of them would know wtf to do if I burst into tears in front of them. Not that I've ever done it.

So when I am worried about something or I am on the verge of a panic attack or just need a handheld I don't have anyone to turn to either. I just have to lock myself away and deal with it myself.

I do have a mum and sister I can call but I don't want to bother them and they have problems of their own to deal with.

There have been times I have been locked in the bathroom with a packet of paracetamol or a razor blade on the verge of a panic attack with nobody to turn to except my own little voice telling me that my DS needs me. Or before I had my DS it was my pets that got me through.

Can we please just stop with the assumption that all women have an emotional support network on call? Not only is it not true it is also bloody offensive to those women who don't have one or who want one so desperately but for whatever reason don't have one.

The reason why men aren't supposed to cry or show emotion is because those things are viewed as being feminine traits. And anything female or feminine is still looked at as being lesser than and not as good as traits associated with being male.

There is help for men struggling with mental health issues. There is even a helpline which is for the sole use of men struggling and there is also the Samaritans. There have also been quite a few campaigns in recent years about how it's okay for men to cry and that it's okay to ask for help.

The thing is though, how many of us are talking about this right now but at the same time also doing things and saying things that perpetrate the idea that men shouldn't cry without realising we're doing It?

I have a DS and am currently trying to conceive and I've lost count of the number of people who have told me how glad I must be that I had a boy first so he can 'look after' any little sister he has. I always call them up on it but it amazes me how normal it is for people to say things like how they want a boy first so they can look out for their little sister, stick up for them, etc. This may seem completely innocent and innocuous but it is a small thing that leads into the bigger picture that men should be strong.

How many of us reinforce gender stereotypes and roles without even thinking about It? People say 'boys don't do this, girls don't do that' without thinking about the bigger picture and what it's all feeding into.

I once went off it with DP when he told DS that he should stop crying because boys don't cry. He wasn't trying to be malicious he just said it without thinking. And I see this quite a lot tbh. I actually know someone who told her son off for crying because ' boys don't cry' and then later went on to share that video on Facebook about male suicide and how boys should be taught it's okay to cry. Uh, what. I mean that is so blatant but when called up on it she couldn't see what the problem was.

Do you call people out on it when they insult boys with terms like 'girl', 'pussy', etc? Perhaps if we stopped using girl as an insult then young boys wouldn't feel o inadaquette when they do something 'girly' like have a good cry.

When a little boy is crying do you comfort him and let him cry or do you tell him to stop It?

We aren't going to stop male suicide and make any improvements if we don't stop and consider the things we are doing to enforce gender roles and stereotypes. We aren't going to make any progress if we don't call other people out when they do it.

It doesn't matter how small it seems. Don't dismiss it as something as 'is that all you've got to worry about?' because every little thing always grows into the far bigger picture that we are trying so hard to fix.

EarlyWalker · 19/11/2018 17:04

Craft I was about to post the same, I saw this on social media today and was disappointed in myself that I had no idea about these. I’ve always seen the men in my life as ‘strong’ subconsciously, and i think that can make it harder for them to admit they’re struggling. :

^Happy international men’s day because:
76% of suicides are men
85% of homelessness are men
70% of homicide victims are men
40% of domestic abuse victims are men
Men are the majority victim of violent crime
Men on average serve 64% longer in prison
Men are 3.4x more likely to be imprisoned than woman for the same crime.
We are all sadly aware of the struggles woman face and sometimes forget that men struggle too. If we don’t speak up how can we expect them too?^

Avegemitesandwich · 19/11/2018 17:07

It doesn't detract from women and their struggles at all.

It does actually, because whenever those stats are posted on IMD (and only on IMD actually, no one gives a fuck the rest of the year) all the wankers come out of the woodwork to say that men have it much harder than women and feminists should STFU blah blah blah. Of course those people aren't actually interested in doing anything to help men, no one really seems to be, they just enjoy using those stats as a way of silencing women.

Avegemitesandwich · 19/11/2018 17:09

And I don't like the twisting of the DV stay either as it makes it seems like DV is an almost 50/50 thing and it really isn't.

I do think more should be done to sort out toxic masculinity which would help lower most of those other stats, but no one really seems all that interested in solving that problem.

Everanewbie · 19/11/2018 17:13

Avegemitesandwich i agree with what you're saying, but that's individuals for you. In a country where you have free speech, you're always going to have someone taking advantage of that right to spread diatribe. We can't ignore very important issues faced by men because a few morons make a half assed effort to hijack it.

It's our duty as decent folk to make sure that issues facing both exclusively women and exclusively men are both in the open and dealt with.

BoneyBackJefferson · 19/11/2018 17:27

Does no one else find it funny that on a thread where toxic masculinity is repeatedly mentioned, men can't have a day to discuss it?

Also this bit about men not going to the drs (there is a link to toxic masculinity if you can be bothered to think) on a forum that repeatedly brings up 'man flu' (its not the only reason) is there any doubt that when a man is ill he should just 'man up' (yup there as well) and 'get on with it' (there it is again) and not go to the drs?

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 17:30

The majority of people who commit suicide are men however that ignores the fact that women are more likely to attempt suicide. Men are simply more likely to be 'successful' due to methods used.

Most homeless people appear to be men however that's because children who end up homeless are nearly always with their mother therefore get given priority for accomadation. Nobody wants to see young kids out on the street. Women without children who end up homeless usually end up falling into sex work. Being given the choice between being a prostitute and being homeless is not a privilege imo.

Most murder victims are men however who is killing them? It's not women. It's other men.

40% of DV victims are not men. FFS why do people keep bringing up that BS statistic up? It has been criticised and outright debunked so many times that quite frankly I'm surprised anyone still quotes it.

The majority of victims of violent crime are men but again who are the perpetrators? Hint: it's not women. The reason men are more likely to be victims is because men are more likely to put themselves in risky situations than women are. Women have it drilled into them from an early age to not go out alone after dark, don't wear this, don't do that, etc in a way which men don't. I know DP and my male friends do things and put themselves in situations that I as a woman would never dream of doing.

Don't take this as victim blaming btw. If somebody attacks you it is 100% the attackers fault however whilst we're on the subject of victim blaming, men are also far less likely to be blamed or held partially responsible for their attack than women are. This in turn I think makes women a lot more wary about putting themselves in risky situations.

As a side note, do those violent crime figures include victims of sex crimes?

Does that prison stat take into consideration the types of crimes women and men tend to commit and be jailed for? The majority of murders, violent crime and sex crimes are commited by men. Women are more likely to commit non violent offences such as shoplifting. Funnily enough crimes against the person do carry a bigger stigma and tend to come with a harsher prison sentence than crime against property and rightly so. Does that stat take that into consideration? Also what sex are the majority of judges who dish out these sentences?

I have heard that men are more likely to be imprisoned for a first offence than women are but never seen anything conclusive to back that claim up. However assuming it is true then again what sex are the majority of judges, police officers, etc who are making these decisions? Perhaps someone should ask these men why they seem to hate their own sex so much.

Whilst some of those stats posted may be true to some extent it is actually a lot more complex than it's made out to be.

Sethis · 19/11/2018 17:31

Can we please just stop with the assumption that all women have an emotional support network on call? Not only is it not true it is also bloody offensive to those women who don't have one or who want one so desperately but for whatever reason don't have one.

So I would have thought that you, of all people, would be completely on board with the 50% of the population that has exactly the same situation as yourself, every day. The huge majority of men live your life of emotional isolation. How fucked up is that?

Why would you be against anything that illustrates the loneliness of a life without what most women take for granted - the ability to discuss anything they want with their friends?

Yes, gender norms are enforced every day. Yes, gender norms can be damaging to individuals. Nobody is saying they aren't.

I fail to see how IMD is anything other than a useful tool to get people to stop and think about those very same gender norms, and thus I fail to see why you seem to be so against the concept.

goodwinter · 19/11/2018 17:39

Most murder victims are men however who is killing them? It's not women. It's other men.
The majority of victims of violent crime are men but again who are the perpetrators? Hint: it's not women.

What difference does that make in the context of the validity of IMD?