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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

International Men’s Day

127 replies

Pinkyponkcustard · 19/11/2018 14:14

I don’t get it! My work is making a big fuss out of this today but it honestly makes me roll my eyes in a company where most of the execs and senior management are men.

Am I missing something?! I thought the whole point of “days” was to talk about improving things/raising the profile of minority groups.

Happy to be educated out of my eye rolling!

OP posts:
AssassinatedBeauty · 19/11/2018 15:03

IMD is only a good thing for everyone if it isn't a mouthpiece for anti-women activists and incels. It absolutely shouldn't be a platform for complaining about feminism having "gone to far" or discussing how middle class white straight men are the worst off group in society.

PurpleDaisies · 19/11/2018 15:08

And none of your post addresses the fact that IWD isn't focused solely on being a victim whereas IMD is.

It doesn't matter if we say that less men are victims or may be victims in different ways or of different things, it is still focusing exclusively on victim status.

This is plain wrong. The theme of this year’s IMD is positive male role models. Confused

And anyway, what would be wrong in raising awareness of big killers of men, ie suicide and cancer?

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:11

The theme of this year’s IMD is positive male role models.

Yes because there is a real shortage of strong positive male role models Hmm.

FFS.

And anyway, what would be wrong in raising awareness of big killers of men, ie suicide and cancer?

Like I said before, nothing.

However what other issues do men specifically face which people think need addressing?

Hereward1332 · 19/11/2018 15:12

It's also World Toilet Day apparently. Given how long some men seem able to stay in there, I doubt it's a co-incidence they're on the same day.

PurpleDaisies · 19/11/2018 15:12

Yes because there is a real shortage of strong positive male role models

I wasn’t commenting on that, only your assertion that IMD is only focussed on victims.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:13

It's also World Toilet Day apparently. Given how long some men seem able to stay in there, I doubt it's a co-incidence they're on the same day.

Grin
Sethis · 19/11/2018 15:13

Heterosexual women generally have it easier than homosexual women, yes. And homosexual men will generally have it easier than homosexual women. See where I'm going with this?

You're making my point for me that only addressing the problems faced by a specific demographic while ignoring others is willfully stupid?

And none of your post addresses the fact that IWD isn't focused solely on being a victim whereas IMD is.

Because if THIS is the reaction IMD gets when only looking at the problems faced by men, can you imagine the reaction if IMD was taken as an opportunity to tout the achievements of men in the way that IWD is?

"Here at the IMD conference, we've decided to look at the past 100 years of male achievement, and how amazing men have managed to overcome obstacles to become the leading giants in their field. Let's begin the proceedings with the richest man in the world..."

Can you imagine the incoherent frothing rage coming from the feminism boards if this existed, when loads of women are already apparently het up simply by daring to have a day where we raise awareness of prostate cancer, suicide, and toxic masculinity? It'd probably get firebombed.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:16

"Here at the IMD conference, we've decided to look at the past 100 years of male achievement, and how amazing men have managed to overcome obstacles to become the leading giants in their field. Let's begin the proceedings with the richest man in the world..."

Yes because the achievements of men are also ignored and dismissed on a daily basis Hmm.

PurpleDaisies · 19/11/2018 15:18

Yes because the achievements of men are also ignored and dismissed on a daily basis

They’re not victims though, are they?

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/11/2018 15:20

Sethis you said:

"can you imagine the reaction if IMD was taken as an opportunity to tout the achievements of men in the way that IWD is?"

Can't you work out why?! It's blindingly obvious that men's achievements have come at the expense of women. Men haven't been restricted as a class from education, from voting and all the rest. Men have benefited from the control of women for centuries. They'd have to have been beyond incompetent and dim to not have achieved. No need to celebrate that.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:21

Again, other than high rates of suicide and male cancers, which issues and struggles do men go through and women don't?

I'm just surprised that nobody has brought up that BS and highly debunked claim that 40% of domestic abuse victims are men yet Hmm.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:24

Exactly AssassinatedBeauty.

Wasn't the person who discovered chromosomes actually a woman but the credit for the achievement was actually given to a man?

CheshireChat · 19/11/2018 15:26

Actually, focusing on role models can be a good way to move away from toxic masculinity and to encourage medical treatment etc.

Sure, men have it easier in lots of ways, but that's not to say they don't face some issues and honestly it would be better for everyone if men moved away from violence, from not seeking help for fear of being seen as weak etc. There's a certain amount of irony that it's feminism that first highlighted this issues though.

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:29

So a Google search reveals that Nettie Stevens discovered them at the same time as Edmund Beecher Wilson however the majority of the credit went to Wilson.

PurpleDaisies · 19/11/2018 15:31

There are lots of examples of that sort of thing plant, Rosalind Franklin not getting a nobel prize for her contribution to the discovery of the structure of DNA.

What’s that got to do with IMD?

PlantsArePeopleToo · 19/11/2018 15:34

I was replying to AssassinatedBeauty's post, Purple.

Sethis · 19/11/2018 15:45

@PlantsArePeopleToo

So you're dismissive of raising awareness of men being able to be visible as victims when society frequently treats that as an impossibility.

You're equally dismissive of raising awareness of men's achievements.

So what, exactly, is your point? That men shouldn't have a day, because women have it worse? Or should men only have a day provided that they mark it in a way that you, a woman, choose for them?

Forgive me for being amused at how well it would go down if I, as a man, started telling women how to celebrate IWD. I bet that wouldn't cause any problems at all.

Are you saying that men don't have problems specific to their gender?

Are you saying that even if they do, those problems shouldn't be addressed?

Are you worried that by having IMD, somehow IWD is devalued?

I mean, you asked for specific instances of male problems, so okay; let's go with the ingrained and hugely damaging societal expectation that "Men don't cry". Men are still expected on a daily basis to suppress and conceal every instance of despair and sadness that they feel. 24/7/365. We don't talk about it. We don't discuss it. Ever. With anyone. Further, male support networks do not serve the same function as female support networks. There is no male equivalent to "having a good cry" with your best friend on the sofa with a cup of tea. The closest we get is going for drinks and getting a halfhearted pat on the shoulder as we manfully refuse to talk about it. If I burst into tears at my friends house he would have no fucking clue what to do.

If a man thinks his partner is cheating on him, what does he do? Who does he talk to? Nobody. He talks to no-one. He can't talk to his mates, because his mates have no idea what to say. He can't talk to his partner, because she's the problem. He can't talk to his mother, or his sister, because he feels less of a man. He doesn't visit websites like MN to get the opinions of total strangers. He sits on the sofa, alone, and despairs.

A man feels like he has psychological problems. He's depressed. He's deeply, darkly depressed. He's contemplating suicide. So he wants to go to a medical professional, and ask to be signed off work. Except he's the sole earner in the family, because his wife is a SAHM looking after their two kids. Without his salary they lose the house and the car, and end up destitute. So he doesn't sign off, and he doesn't seek help, until the day comes that he can't deal with it any more.

So how do we address this? By mentioning, on IMD, that it's okay for men to cry, and it's okay for men to seek help and talk to people about their problems instead of bottling everything up.

Does this mean that women don't have problems? No. Of course women have problems. Women are more likely to suffer rape, more likely to suffer bias in the workplace, more likely to be forced into the role of the primary caregiver to their children, to name just a few. Every demographic has problems. Spending 8 hours in a year discussing the problems faced by one doesn't dismiss the problems faced by the others.

AssassinatedBeauty · 19/11/2018 15:51

"Forgive me for being amused at how well it would go down if I, as a man, started telling women how to celebrate IWD"

Why do you think that would be? Do you recognise at all that there has been and still is a hierarchy, where men have restricted and controlled women?

It would be like a member of the KKK telling black people how to run a Black Lives Matter day...

Thesnobbymiddleclassone · 19/11/2018 15:58

International men's day is working hard to reach those men suffering from mental health issues as currently around 80 men a a week kill themselves in the UK.

It's just as important as womens day which works to highlight flexible working and equal promotion opportunity

AlpacaLypse · 19/11/2018 16:06

@Sethis great post.

Sethis · 19/11/2018 16:29

Do you recognise at all that there has been and still is a hierarchy, where men have restricted and controlled women?

Do you understand that that doesn't matter in the slightest to the men in the above scenarios that I listed?

Justanotherlurker · 19/11/2018 16:31

I work for a very liberal Sillicon Valley company, we had a lot of "but what do men suffer" in the lead up to them saying they will be doing things for today, they also do a lot for IWD and in the build up to it also.

It's a common theme to point at the top 1% of men and use that example to dismiss the experience of any other men.

Men, women and all in between suffer because of the restrictive systems that have developed over the last few thousand years of economic and societal change.

Anybody who thinks that it is only important (or even possible) to address one side of this repression has a pretty limited understanding of gender issues and the way gender hegemony works in my opinion.

For every idiot who starts with "what about mens day" on IWD we have the same amount of idiots shouting things like "but what do men suffer" today.

Tiscold · 19/11/2018 16:32

@Sethis. Bravo. Amazing post well done

Tiscold · 19/11/2018 16:33

Agreed, people complaining about men going what about mens day, then complaining men have a day, ironic.

SleepySofa · 19/11/2018 16:34

Hmm Every day is International Men's Day. Shall we have White History Month too?