To wonder why "cry it out" works?

[chocahoop]

I've heard people say that cry it out only works because babies then learn that no one will come so there is no point in crying, but surely that's nonsense? Surely babies don't wake up in the middle of night and sadly think to themselves "oh I may as well go back to sleep as no one bothered to come last time".

I'm curious as to why it does work tbh as it goes against all my mothering instincts yet I am jealous of people who's children sleep through the night and don't seem to be feeling any ill effects of being left to cry it out.

Sometimes if I wake in the night, I would like to wake my partner and tell him what is on my mind, but I don't and usually I am asleep again within seconds. Babies communicate by crying as they cannot talk. They learn very quickly that this is how you get mummies attention( sometimes daddy) so this is what becomes the norm. It can mean I am wet and uncomfortable, I am hungry, I feel unwell, my teeth hurt or sometimes just I am awake and bored. If a babies needs are not met or wet/ hungry/ pain, that is damaging, but if you rush to them every time they stir, you and they will become exhausted. At some stage they have to learn that nighttime is for sleeping and you only need to call mum if there is actually a problem that needs sorting. That is why sleep training works. If you know baby is clean fed and not poorly, then lowing them to learn to self settle when they awake is a gift to them and you, not poor parenting.

The being quiet is also a stress response: fight/flight or shut down. The baby can’t respond in any other way so they shut down- go quiet and/or go to sleep. Which is why CIO is a stressful thing to do and reinforces that stressful pathway

I dare say the crying during controlled crying is stressful to the child, to an extent, in the same way a child is stressed when you say no to the sweets and that triggers a tantrum. But it’s very short lived. As opposed to the hours and hours my twins cried while I bounced / rocked / shushed. They were stressed because they were tired. Three nights of controlled crying, they learnt to self settle, and no more stress! So in the long run it was totally the less stressful thing to do

limpshade you feel qualified to say how 4.5 million people across 48 countries parent/are parented because you live in Asia?

Do you really think Japanese parents and Cambodian parents and Pakistani parents and rural Chinese parents all parent the same way?

tangina is correct, attachment theory is the basis of developmental psychology. Some total ignorance on this thread.

I teach some kids with attachment disorder. It is caused by not meeting young children's needs. One form of this is leaving babies to 'cry it out' (not controlled crying, although I couldn't do that either). It results in kids being unable to form bonds, kids being unable to learn etc. It's why I don't believe in ignoring crying babies for long periods of time (it's necessary to leave them for short periods at times).

limpshade you feel qualified to say how 4.5 million people across 48 countries parent/are parented because you live in Asia?

No, I don't. I explicitly stated "IME" (in my experience - of the city I live in) and used the word "often". Not "all" or "most", but "often". I really am unsure about what part of my post has outraged you. In fact, I was pointing out my irritation with a sweeping generalisation so it's ironic that you're accusing me of one.

It seems very weird to say 'Asia' and talk about how things are there. Just say 'some parts of Asia' or 'some countries in Asia'. It's not that hard, is it?

Asia IME and some parts of Asia IME have a totally different meaning.

If we are going down that rabbit hole, then surely it's just as much a generalisation to say "this is how all parents parent in X country" as it is to say "this is how parents parent in Asia." As it happens, I said neither of those two things.

👋🏻

This stuff really puts me off having a second child. My DD for almost 3 months simply couldn't be put down without screaming, I mean full on screaming. I really tried to hold her all day but I meant I was barely eating or drinking, waiting until DH was home before using the toilet or brushing my teeth but it wasn't sustainable.

If I'd had a toddler I would have had no choice to leave the baby screaming for prolonged periods in order to do bedtime, baths and nappy changes.

ShackUp - I think you need to do a bit more reading about attachment theories!

Attachment disorders are severe and result from prolonged emotional neglect/abuse - definitely not from being left to cry to sleep on occasion!

I really wish people wouldn't use "attachment theory" to back up their points about sleep training when they don't really understand it. Talking about attachment disorders is so unhelpful in this context.

Yes, to form strong attachments in babies parents need to be warm and responsive. They don't have to be perfect, get it right all the time, never let their baby cry.
A parent who is inconsistent or not warm, sensitive and responsive enough (and that includes regularly ignoring a crying baby) can produce an insecure child - which might be 40% of the population so not all that unusual.

But talking about attachment disorders, abuse and orphanages in the context of a short period of sleep training - I'm not sure if it's ignorance or deliberate goading?

ShackUp attachment disorder is caused by severe neglect not leaving a much loved child to cio.

Yes @orlande, lots of ppl sharing CIO/CC (whichever you prefer to call it) experiences here and no one is advocating to leave a child crying with no contact for long periods of time until they pass out.

Personally I think cio that works quickly is because the baby is forced to discover another way to soothe themselves quickly. One of my children went through a phase of waking multiple times for a dummy - one night I didn't get up to get it for him and within 5 minutes of crying he had worked out how to put it back in himself and never woke for it again.

It’s so frustrating to realise how many people are getting to adulthood with varying degrees of psychological problems because their parents never understood how neural pathways develop in infants.

limp maybe just think about how what you say comes across.

But orlande, crying it out (extinction method - ie completely ignoring the child) can definitely damage attachment.

I don't think that is what people are talking about here, which it is why it's so difficult to discuss this subject as people are not necessarily talking about the same thing.

And for those who say that parents shouldn't intervene if the baby is not hungry or in discomfort, what about their emotional need for comfort? That is just as legitimate.

The thing is, you never know what is actually happening in the child's brain.

Maybe they've soothed themselves to sleep. Maybe they've realised 'when I cry, no one comes, so I'm not worthy of love/attention'.

It's all very well and good to say that your child is fine and not fucked up, but sadly, many kids are NOT fine. And we don't always know the reasons for that.

I don't think we need to go running to our kid the second they whimper, but if they're screaming, I would never be able to ignore them.

Fairly sure that no one who is advocating for CIO is talking about the extinction method, we're talking about graduated extinction.

Tangina - are you talking about cio as often/regularly failing to meet an infant's needs, or (as the OP is) a one off or few days of leaving a loved and well cared for baby to cry at bedtime?
The OP's example of a baby being left to cry for 30 minutes will not damage attachment.

It’s cruel imho. I used the pick up/put down method, and never left them to cry. Eldest ds slept 12 hours a night from 8 weeks, and youngest ds from 7 months.
I used Tracey Boggs book which is a marvel, you don’t need to leave them to cry it out.

When I was a newborn (premature,) baby, my mum put me in the garden shed because of my crying. I was asked by a therapist if I had abandonment issues. Um...
Although my ds with asc cried himself to sleep because holding him or cuddling him made him cry harder. I used to rock him in his bouncy chair or walk him for hours in his pushchair. No-one tells you about that. Holding a baby is meant to soothe them not make them hysterical.

@Gigglebrain I used Tracey's method for months, to the letter. Baby would not stop crying. He cried far more while we foolishly followed that book than he did with three nights of CIO.

Babies are different.

How do you know some people aren't talking about that orlande? I have friends and clients who think that is fine - after all, our parent's generation did it.

And 30 mins to an infant (pre 9 months) is an enormous amount of time to a baby who has no concept of beginnings or endings.

My first slept through the night by herself, my second didn’t and I had to go back to work. I tried PUPD which made her worse. She was exhausted every day and very irritable day and night from lack of sleep as I would go into her at every noise. when she was about 9 months we did CIO, and she cried for a few minutes (we timed it) and then she slept through the night ever since. She’s a much happier baby- wakes up happy and is very content. She was in no way neglected, but going into her room to comfort her while she cried in the night would make her scream and upset. If we left her for a few minutes she would gently cry for a minute then go back to sleep. Women shouldn’t be martyrs, your sleep and wellbeing matters too.

What I don't understand about these threads - genuinely! - is if the babies who are never allowed to cry in their cot AT ALL etc etc don't have very different cries for different things. Mine has a very specific "I'm overtired and want to be asleep" cry and I know from experience than anything I do to try and comfort her will make things worse and get her more upset - she just wants it to be quiet and dark and go to sleep. Doesn't happen often as we usually get her into bed before she reaches that point and then she just chats happily to herself until she dozes off. On the other hand if she's in pain, uncomfortable, scared, hungry etc etc she has very different cries and I know immediately that she needs me. Same in the middle of the night. She rarely wakes but if she does I can easily tell the difference between her "something woke me up and I'm annoyed and want to go back to sleep and if you come and disturb me I'll be even more annoyed!" cry and when she needs something. Surely leaving her in those circumstances - knowing full well that if I go in she'll get more upset - isn't doing her any harm?