To wonder why "cry it out" works?

[chocahoop]

I've heard people say that cry it out only works because babies then learn that no one will come so there is no point in crying, but surely that's nonsense? Surely babies don't wake up in the middle of night and sadly think to themselves "oh I may as well go back to sleep as no one bothered to come last time".

I'm curious as to why it does work tbh as it goes against all my mothering instincts yet I am jealous of people who's children sleep through the night and don't seem to be feeling any ill effects of being left to cry it out.

There is a world of difference between a baby being left to cry for hours and sleep training.

This.
It's a very simplistic attitude to assume anybody who tries the range of sleep training methods is neglecting their child by leaving them to cry for hours.

I used gentle sleep training methods and we all have excellent sleep habits in this house.
My friend gave up trying to even have a sleep routine because it felt cruel and her DS2 and DS4 are frequently up until 2am and sleeping until lunch. The oldest won't wake up for school and the household is absolute chaos. The boys fall asleep wherever and each parent shares a room with one child whoever falls asleep within the closest proximity of each bed.

Good sleep habits have knock on effects to all other life aspects of every one in the house.

I coslept with my DC’s and fed them to sleep if they woke - that worked for us.

SIL had her children in cots from quite young and left them to cry at night.

All our children have turned out perfectly fine. Her children are as close to her as mine are to me. I think when children are very young you can over-worry about the effect of these things - but as long as children are mostly loved and taken care of then things don’t need to be perfect.

I see my job as a parent to help my children to learn the life skills they need.
For babies one of the life skills they need is to learn to go to sleep, they just need to associate the cot with sleep and not playtime/feeding time/mummy time. I did not do my job very well with DS1 and he is still a poor sleeper. I also think you parent significantly better if you're not exhausted all the time.

Just think...if they did feel abandoned then they wouldn't cry or call out in the morning when they woke up.

DS2 and DS3 were both CC sleep trained when they were around 3 months and slept through from 7pm-7am. They sleep well now and don't have any attachment problems.

You're always going to get these martyr mums OP who think that they are doing the best for their child, but having a exhausted mother and overtired child isn't best.

Incidentally tangina I can't find a scientific single paper that links attachment disorders in older children with the CC sleep method.

That's exactly how it works. It's cruel

tangina dropping a comment like this... Just because the evidence based research around attachment doesn't suit your narrative, doesn't mean it's not real.
...only serves to make people who are struggling feel like they are bad parents and harming their child. You're not commenting on how this evidence relates to sleep training, which is what most of us are talking about rather than leaving a child to scream for a long time.

As PP have pointed out, this is a whole family issue and lack of sleep increases the risks of mothers developing depression and harming their child. I'm challenging you only to defend any desperate mum's out there who are at the end of their tether and for whom CIO might help.

Tangina
I’ve read a lot of the research you’re referring to and totally agree with what you’re saying.

I also think just leaving a baby to cry themselves to sleep is much worse than controlled crying. But in my opinion doing neither is better for the baby! It’s a spectrum - probably co-sleeping and nightfeeds on one end and being left to cry on the other.

I still feed my one year old back to sleep in the middle of the night. But he has also learned to fall asleep by himself. I’m sure he will grow out of night feeds at some point. He is a very happy and secure little boy.

Attachment theory - forming positive attachment with your baby is the basis for good mental health for them in the long run. You form a secure attachment by meeting most of their needs, most of the time. Since you can’t quantify ‘most’ and every baby is different, it’s hard to know whether not meeting their needs at night will have an effect on attachment. Maybe it does for some babies and not for others. Based on this, every parent makes a personal choice as to whether to sleep train or not.

My eldest was never put down and he still cried constantly!! I held him for naps, cuddled him to sleep until he was one. He was just a grumpy baby!

I've never done CIO. At the risk of sounding like a smug mother, I didn't feel the need to cos my kids generally slept well at night.

One thing I have wondered is you see a lot of people who post on here saying it worked for a while but then x, y and Z happened and now it's back to square one. I wonder if it really works then?! Surely constantly having to do it defeats the purpose.

I wouldn’t leave my babies or children to cio but I think some people are being melodramatic about it on here.
All mine were sleep trained without crying and slept through relatively early.
People are obsessed with Sue Gerdhadt’s why love matters, on any thread about sleep training. I don’t think a bit of sleep training is what she was writing about. She also wrote that babies ideally should not be in nurseries before 2 or 3 years of age, yet strangely that is never mentioned on mumsnet.

I like the ridiculous idea that a mom who doesn’t choose to leave their baby crying is a ‘martyr’ what utter rubbish.

Watching, the very first post in this thread is disputing the damage cio can do to a baby. I am suggesting that the research relating to attachment theory suggests it can. The discussion has moved on since then, but those who wish to see the writing on attachment theory can Google the authors I have referenced. Anyone who would rather not is under no obligation to do so.

I am sorry if it upsets people to read that there may be adverse consequences from leaving babies to cry, but that doesn't mean it isn't the case.

Ethelfeda exactly. It's a spectrum and what may be best for a baby isn't necessarily best for a mother, so each individual needs to make that choice. Doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist.

I think it depends how you do it. I found it really easy to distinguish between the cries of my children from Hunger, discomfort, tiredness, and pain. when I left mine to cry it out it was only when I knew it was none of these. My DS was awake every 20 minutes and had got out of the habit of being able to put himself back to sleep. Apart from two night of leaving them to cry where about 15 minutes 13 years ago I am very responsive to his emotional needs. He is very in tune with his emotions. He definitely was not a quiet baby (or teen!). As a baby he would sleep through wonderfully unless he needed us because he was in pain or ill or discomfort. Then he would cry and we woukd sort him out. In fact he still sometimes coming into our bed when he is ill as he gets a bit trippy with a temperature. I do know he would have been far more emotionally damaged if he has continued waking me up every 20 minutes for the next year or so as I would have been a complete and utter wreck and not been able to parent him properly.

In response to the comments on here...

So if a very loving, caring mother who meets their babies needs in every way. Playing, feeding, changing, teaching them things as they get older, talking to them constantly, kissing and cuddling them, giving them calpol when they aren't feeling well. Picking up when they want cuddles during the day. Etc

So if this mother left their baby to cry for 20 mins one night (at 10 months old and previously waking 4+ times a night). And from that night onwards the baby slept through.

Would this motherhood be called cruel and neglectful ?

In my opinion it is cruel to leave a baby to cry it out.

A pp said about her child having night terrors. One of my my children also has them, I still don’t leave him to cry it out, I sit with him and soothe him and when he has calmed I give him a cuddle, that is hugely different to leaving a baby to cry it out.

Tangina the first post asked how the CIO method worked. The OP was asking if it worked because the baby gave up crying realising that no one was ever coming. You said that was how it works and that prolonged crying psychologically damages a child.

A number of posters have subsequently countered that the method works because the child learns to self settle and that children who have been sleep trained in this manner still wake and cry if something is wrong.

I'm not understanding why a baby who stops crying all the time at night once sleep trained will still cry occasionally at night and during the day based on your theory? Surely CIO leaves them so phycologically damaged that they think no one will come?

Also...when using the CIO method, someone is coming, just not immediately.

I have not done any controlled crying, I've always responded to cries so far and DS is too young for it anyway, but I have ended up leaving him to cry before - even though I haven't wanted to. For example in the car when I couldn't get to him, or when I was on the loo, or when he is being rocked to sleep or carried in the sling but he's frustrated because he is overtired or can't get to sleep. Has this never once happened to the people who say it's cruel? I don't understand how that's any different?

I’ve read some studies about this and it absolutely crushes me. My twins went straight to nicu after birth, one stayed for two weeks and the other for two months. They were born mid September so the unit was extremely busy. I can’t help picturing them crying at night and me not being there - I don’t know if they were left. They both spent some time before coming home in the special care nursery where there were few staff for the number of babies. I know it’s very likely they were left to cry at times and I feel a lot of guilt that I couldn’t be there more, especially after the first came home.

The one who was in longer has a lot of developmental problems and we don’t know the cause yet. I’m so worried this is why. If I had another baby and they were at home I would not leave them to cry - I’ve never left my twins to cry since they came home (beyond the times where I’ve been dealing with the other).

DD1 cried for hours every night, we rocked and bounced and sang and rocked... Tbh I don't think it would have been any different if I'd just sat next to her and let her cry, she only gave in when she was totally exhausted. She is 5yo now and still doesn't know how to go to sleep, a bit of sleep training when she was tiny could have been a game changer for now. Benefit of hindsight!

I don’t get this crying it out thing. I did gentle sleep training with mine and it never once involved crying it out.

All I did was keep days bright and noisy with lots of natural noise etc and sunlight and night dark as possible (minimal light to feed) when they wanted comfort, if it was just awake and murmuring I gentle stroked their heads and backs etc, if they were crying I I picked them up and cuddled them but kept talking, light and noise to a minimum and a calm ambience.

Well said bookworm.

I hate how anti sleep training mumsnet is. Stop the drama people. These are not neglected babies. And why should the babies needs come before mums?

Well said namechanger.

@Jimdandy anyone I know who's done CIO did it as a very last resort when they'd tried all other gentle methods.

I haven't done cio/cc with mine, but I do think that some can overreact to it a bit. I have had some crying at bedtime.

Since we are discussing evidence and attachment theory, I'm sure that I saw a reference that gave a figure. It was for responding correctly to needs expressed by infant crying, and responding around even just 30% of the time is enough to form secure attachment. Babies are primed to attach.

I'm sure the mothers on here interested and engaged enough to bother with a parenting forum are doing (or have done) 30% or better.

So, I can't see how a bit of controlled crying or whatever over a few nights will cause much harm, and would be worth it to save a mother's sanity. Because that's what is at stake with sleep deprivation. As long as the baby/toddler is in a loving and safe environment with caring parents, sometimes it needs to be done.

To reassure grumpy baby mums, they may not be communicating a need you are not responding to, they may just be tired/frustrated/grumpy about being a baby, and your loving presence is all that's needed while they develop their way out of it.