To wonder why "cry it out" works?

[chocahoop]

I've heard people say that cry it out only works because babies then learn that no one will come so there is no point in crying, but surely that's nonsense? Surely babies don't wake up in the middle of night and sadly think to themselves "oh I may as well go back to sleep as no one bothered to come last time".

I'm curious as to why it does work tbh as it goes against all my mothering instincts yet I am jealous of people who's children sleep through the night and don't seem to be feeling any ill effects of being left to cry it out.

“It is neglect”... What a load of rubbish.

When sleep training you don’t leave the child for more than 5 minutes, so they are constantly reassured. You also don’t do it with little babies, but wait until they are 10+ months. They cry because they are tired but can get to sleep, and sleep training teaches them too.

Hence with ours it was a no-brainer: they went from crying all night IN our bed to crying a tiny bit in their own cot, being reassured and getting themselves to sleep. Win-win.

The difference between cry it out and a structured sleep training method is that the former teaches baby that no one will come and the latter that its OK to self sooth because mum (or dad) WILL come back. The child is not supposed to feel abandoned in sleep training. Yes they might feel sad and cross that they are not being responded to the way they are used to e. g. rocked or fed to sleep but they should be comforted and reassured in some way regularly.

I also hate the ‘they never do it in Asia/Africa/insert region here because they’re so much more nurturing and in tune with natural human behaviour than us’. It’s othering and has more than a touch of the ‘noble savage’ theory about it.

3teens to clarify on cry it out:

"People often think this method of sleep training involves leaving babies alone to cry for as long as it takes before they fall asleep. But "cry it out" (CIO) simply refers to any sleep training approach – and there are many – that says it's okay to let a baby cry for a specified period of time (often a very short period) before offering comfort."

www.babycenter.com/0_baby-sleep-training-cry-it-out-methods_1497112.bc

Just because the evidence based research around attachment doesn't suit your narrative, doesn't mean it's not real. However for balance, there is also Winicott's theory of 'the good enough mother' (1953) for balance.

Tangina what evidence based research? I've heard and read that all that "evidence" has been rubbished.

The thing is, sometimes you do need to let a child cry. When they’re having a tantrum to get their own way over the sweeties in the supermarket, for example. No-one would say ‘oh give them the sweets, just think of all that cortisol.’

So whether CIO is right for the baby depends on the baby and the reason they are crying in the night. Mine were tired and ratty through an inability to figure out how to sleep (as was I!) and did far more uncontrolled crying through exhaustion than they ever did as part of controlled crying (which was over in 3 nights, and they’ve slept through ever since). Stroking, bouncing, cuddling etc didn’t stop them crying because they just wanted to be asleep. My HV explained the crying they do through CIO as frustration / irritation as they learn to self settle. They’re tired, they can’t sleep, they cry; they figure it out, they stop crying, they wake up happy. Now if they ever do wake up in the night I’ll hear them having a sing to themselves (twins) before going back to sleep so hardly distressed children! (And these days if they ever do cry in the night I go in, because I know there is a good reason for it).

Horses for courses, parenting choice, each to their own etc etc; not for everyone; but it can be good for a child. To compare it to sustained neglect is absurd!

Just wanted to add, for people who find their baby has learned to fall asleep during a feed, this happened with my daughter and when she was about 4 months old I had enough of being a prisoner in the feeding chair lol.

At this time I happened to find an article by a man who gave me some of the best sleep advice ever..... if you want your baby to learn to self soothe put them down awake but super sleepy, so if baby falls asleep during a feed just a gentle jostle as you carry them to the cot will allow them to be aware that they have been put down in a different spot then if they do happen to wake up during a sleep cycle it's not a shock to find out they are in the cot.

Sometimes it takes a few goes but works so much better in the long run than letting them fall asleep in your arms and trying to transfer to bed IME.

I would also be interested to see this ‘evidence-based research around attachment’ and what it has to do with leaving a baby to cry for five minutes.

@Watchingthetelly without outing myself, I work in this field and no, it hasn't been discredited. There is endless writing available about it - Bowlby and Ainsworth, Weiss, Klaus etc.

Every theory has detractors, but it is one of the most basic tenets of any psychotherapy training and used across nearly all models.

So elusive tangina

Jeffy, this is something that I’ve been thinking (anxiously) about. My son is a crier, even in the sacred sling. I have a toddler so he has to cry sometimes while I attend to her. He especially hates the car seat and screams hysterically in that. I have to do a 15 minute round trip every day to collect my little girl from Creche and he screams like he’s been abandoned. Every time. For ten weeks straight. What’s the difference between that and cry it out? He certainly hasn’t “learned nobody will come”. Is he horribly damaged by raises cortisol levels? To be clear, I don’t do cry it out, though my children are awful, awful sleepers. But mainly because I just can’t cope with the crying myself.

bookworm, yes, yes, yes. This always comes up on BLW threads too (how do you think nomadic tribes cope without food processors, OP? Well, they mostly pre-chew the food for their babies, but that doesn’t really fit the narrative).

I sleep trained my son at about 5.5 months. I didn't use cry it out, but controlled crying yes. The longest he was left to cry was 7 minutes and it was a tired cry not a proper scream, he learned within 2 days.

I don't think I could do cry it out, because the noise would drive me mad, but I think if a child is loved in the day then being left to cry at night time can't have a huge difference, I think most parents know when it's a tired cry or a painful i need my mum cry. Even in the Gina Ford methods you respond to sad cries.

Elusive? I've given you references - do your own research!

Just to clarify, I am talking about "cry it out" not controlled crying, like I said I've known people to say they left their baby to cry themselves to sleep for half an hour one night and from then on they slept through. That's not controlled crying.

tangina You've given a list of names, not references. Also you said the evidence around "attachment". Should we assume you're talking about attachment parenting, which is not the subject of this thread? You are unhelpful and attempting to appear knowledgeable without actually sharing any knowledge.

I don't think letting a baby cry themselves to sleep for one night is neglect tbh.

Seriously, any googling of those names will bring up a lot of literature about attachment theory (not attachment parenting). I am taking kids to sports things now, I fail to see how I am being obtuse here - just Google attachment theory, it's not difficult.

@chocahoop I can see the confusion. Not sure if you saw my earlier post but "cry it out" is controlled crying as I know it: www.babycenter.com/0_baby-sleep-training-cry-it-out-methods_1497112.bc

No experience of just leaving a baby to cry so don't know how/if that would work

tangina we've all got things to do.

@Watchingthetelly I really don't understand the point? I've studied attachment theory so don't need to do the research. You can choose to our choose not to 🤷‍♀️

or

These threads. 🙄 And the assumption some make that every baby would be like theirs if everyone was as perfect a mother. What are you meant to do with a toddler like mine who has violent night terrors several times a night, and any attempts to comfort him simply make it worse? All the advice (from NHS and gentle sleep consultants alike) says make sure he's safe but don't try to pick him up. Picking him up and trying to cuddle him makes him think he's under threat, and he starts bucking and thrashing and screaming like nothing you have ever heard. There is nothing we can do but let him cry it out and try to keep him from hurting himself. It is heartbreaking and awful. We don't do it for fun, or for our own convenience. It's the only way he can get a remotely decent night's sleep. During he day he is snuggly and affectionate and chatty and lovingly attached to both of us.

As for the 'slings will solve everything' brigade - we tried slings from birth and they made him feel trapped and panicky - he would scream and desperately wiggle. (Yes, we tried every kind of sling, over and over, until we had to break with 4th trimester dogma and respect what he was trying to tell us, which was that he hated it). We've tried co-sleeping and he can't settle as he is very big and a restless sleeper. Babies are individuals. They have likes and dislikes and differing neurological setups and differing sensory processing and differing needs for space.

I really don't think you can dump all sleep training methods in one category. Pick up put down for example, you never leave the child alone. Even doing the gradual retreat method mine cried a little bit. Those methods are a world apart from Ferber's controlled crying method.

I didn't do cry it out or controlled crying. I did the pick them up and give them a cuddle when they cry method. Now long past the baby stage they all seem happy and calm individuals