To think this woman was ridiculous

[lastqueenofscotland]

I am leaving my job and am helping interview for my replacement.

Just had an interview with a lady and were just confirming that everyone is expected to work one Saturday a month and there is some overtime (paid at 1.5x hourly rate) certain months of the year.
The woman said that wouldn’t work for her and we were like “oh it was in the job description” and she puffs out her chest and declares loudly
“But I am a mother I can’t believe you have NO flexibility for this.”

Colleague who is the mother of 4 inc an 18 month year old had to seriously bite her tongue.

It’s really annoyed me and I can’t work out why

mathsanxiety you're spot on.

There really is hatred isn't there. We're called CF's if we don't go out to work, and then called CF's if we dare to ask for hours that mean we can go back to work. How dare we!

And this is from 'mums'net. Pretty depressing, really.

The FormidableMrsC, and others here who can't understand why someone would apply for a job with hours they can't do -

There are many, many people who are forced under pain of losing all their benefits and ending up living on the streets to spend all day every day applying for jobs.

The lucky ones get interviews. Many of them can't work the hours required for the job they are interviewed for.

Then there are people who need a job and hope to be able to negotiate hours. It is commonly understood that this is possible for salaried employees anyway, who bring some value to the company or organisation.

The problem is not that women are asking too much.

The problem is that employers and government think they can get away with ignoring the fact that employees have responsibilities toward their children.

Very sadly for society, employers and government are enabled by employees who are read and willing to stick the boot in and resent and mock women who have children to take care of.

As for the nurse who raised 3 children on the phone - I'd like to think she'd have preferred not to. And why should she have had to? It's not something that should be the norm. Jesus christ.

And to add to that excellent post math the fact that women are delighted by it

Talk about turkeys and Christmas.

I had no one to have my children and childcare providers are closed at weekends and overnight hmm

Genuine question, but if evening/weekend/unsocial hours childcare is so massively necessary/desired, why hasn't the supply sprung up to meet demand?

I recall watching something about a nighttime creche i America where parents dropped their kids off to go to bed, while they worked nights. You'd think there are enough enterprising people in the UK to start similar and corner the market?

Shotsfired, or we could just pay mothers and other carers a living wage:

Every worker is entitled to a living wage. Women do 2/3 of the world’s work – in the home, on the land and in the community – but most of this work is unwaged.

· Women are the primary carers everywhere in the world, fighting for the survival and well-being of children and sick, disabled and elderly people, in the home and outside, in peace as in war. Women grow most of the world’s food.

· Most carers, starting with mothers, get no wages and aren’t considered workers.

· Many carers are themselves disabled; many are children caring for younger ones or for their disabled parents; many are grandparents leaving retirement to care for their children’s children.

· Caring is demanding work but the skills it requires are undervalued even in the job market – domestic work, homecare, childcare and even nursing are low paid.

· Valuing caring work would help to close the income gap between women and men. It would also draw more men into caring.

· Financial dependence when caring work is unwaged often traps women in violent relationships.

· Many mothers do several jobs and have to fit time with their children around their job – this is exhausting and stressful for all.

· When mothers are impoverished and overworked, children suffer: hunger, ill-health, violence and exploitation.

· Mothers who have to return to other work soon after childbirth are less likely to breastfeed.

· Workers who take time off to care for children or other loved ones, lose pay, promotion, social security and future pension.

· Devaluing caring work devalues people, relationships and life itself.

· Investing in carers redirects economic and social policies towards survival, health and well-being – for every individual and for the planet which sustains us all.

Caring for others is the foundation of every society, yet this work, done mostly by women, is devalued and underfunded.

We demand that:

1. Every worker be paid a living wage, including mothers and other carers.

1. National and international budgets redirect financial support and resources to mothers and other carers.

Sponsored by: Every Mother is a Working Mother Coalition (US) ● International Wages for Housework Campaign ● Military Families Speak Out (US) ● Nawa Chhattisgarh Mahila Samiti (India) ● Payday men’s network ● Federacion Sindical de Trabajadoras y Trabajadores del Hogar (Peru) ● Single Mothers’ Self-Defence ● Welfare Warriors (US) ● WinVisible (women with visible and invisible disabilities)

UK endorsers (June 2015): All African Women’s Group ● Black Women’s Rape Action Project ● Brighton Feminist Collective ● Caribbean Labour Solidarity ● Christopher Alder Family Campaign ● Disabled People Against Cuts ● English Collective of Prostitutes ● Food for All (Camden) ● Hammersmith & Fulham Coalition Against Cuts ● Independent Catholic News ● International Women Count Network ● Kilburn Unemployed Workers Group ● Lactation Consultants GB ● Legal Action for Women ● London Socialist Film Co-op ● Mammas Community Breastfeeding Support Project ● Mothers at Home Matter ● Queer Strike ● Scottish Kinship Care Alliance ● Scottish Prostitute Education Project (SCOTPEP) ● Sex Worker Open University ● Taxpayers Against Poverty ● Women Against Rape ● x:talk

Some prominent individuals: Mumia Abu-Jamal ● Melissa Benn ● Joanna Biggs ● Julia Bradley ● Margaret Busby ● Bob Crow ● Greg Foxsmith ● David Graber ● Eric Huntley ● Selma James ● Bruce Kent ● Sheila Kitzinger ● Ken Loach ● John McDonnell MP ● Martina Navratilova ● Trenton Oldfield ● Susie Orbach ● Gareth Peirce ● Greg Philo (Glasgow Media Group) ● Kate Pickett ● Dame Philippa Russell, Chair Standing Commission on Carers ● Christina Sammoutis ● Emma Thompson ● Vivienne Westwood ● Zoe Williams ● Walter Wolfgang ● Richard Wilkinson ● Matt Wrack

www.bfawu.org/the_bfawu_are_proud_to_support_the_call_for_a_real_living_wage_for_mothers_and_carers

To pp saying childfree "hate" parents etc. I don't think that is the case at all. It's quite a strange thing to even say!

What many childfree people hate is the immediate assumption they are there solely to pick up the slack for whatever hours/tasks/requirements going, without question.

And that their requirements are inferior solely because they don't involve children.

Working together to resolve conflicts would avoid a lot of this. I am waiting for the inevitable Christmas leave posts to start soon - as one of those childfree people I'll gladly work with a parent if they use manners and friendliness to discuss staffing cover. But if they just tell me their Christmas is more important than mine, then I get rapidly more liable to dig my heels in too.

mathanxiety
The thing is workers without children don't cease to have responsibilities or reasons they don't want to work all the unsociable hours.
More serious ones include Looking after disabled or infirm relatives or friends. I have a disability so could manage a certain amount of these hours but not every week.
And yes some people have no responsibilites just value leisure and have chosen a job with only some unsociable hours and some weekends free.

Why would being a mother or father and needing childcare trump all these reasons when a parent is part of a workplace with shift work?

"It's bad practice to interview people for your job you're leaving 😵"

Why do people always say something entirely random and inconsequential on AIBU threads? It's like even if they think the OP isn't be unreasonable they still have to criticise the OP in some way.

it's so weird. See it time and again on here.

YANBU by the way op.

Turkeys and Christmas indeed, continuallychargingmyphone

ShotsFired - that's where the unpaid grandparents come in handy in the UK.

Then the grandparents get mocked for stating they have childcare responsibilities, but obviously everyone wants a nurse or a doctor to see them promptly when they arrive at A&E...

I always wonder why hospitals in particular don't provide daycare and night quarters for the babies and children of their employees.

There is a spectacular lack of joined up thinking going on.

Is that really a desirable scenario - young children bedding down for the night in a nursery?

Yes, there are some childminders and other providers (sometimes on-site nurseries) that offer childcare outside normal working hours, but they are few and far between.

Not to mention that safeguarding risks would be higher outside normal working hours.

Why would being a mother or father and needing childcare trump all these reasons when a parent is part of a workplace with shift work?

Because children need care and supervision at all times when they are young, Bagadverts.

They don't come with an off switch, and you can't lock them in a cupboard under the stairs for long stretches without social services launching an investigation involving neglect and endangerment.

Not sure what is so difficult to understand here about the difference between (1) wanting to go for a night out and (2) having to take care of children because they could kill themselves or burn down the house...

But out of interest @math please do provide an answer to what my earlier example demonstrated.

What do you expect to happen when there are no childless team members? What happens when the people you work with have the same child based (because we know this is the only important type of commitment🤔) responsibilities?

Should the office shut 2 hours early? Should they hire some ‘specifically childless people’? 😂 FML you’re entertaining

Shots, I don’t know, re childcare, however the fact is it hasn’t.

The problem with a night time nursery is that care would be needed the following day as well.

It isn’t about special treatment. It’s about being unable to do certain hours because of children. A lot of the time we aren’t talking about billionaire stock rollover but jobs like Tesco, care work, call centres. Some compassion and understanding is generally helpful.

@math

I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand here!!! Having a child and taking on all of the responsibility which comes with that is a .....(wait for it) .....CHOICE!

Not having children does not make someone a second class citizen!!! Which is EXACTLY what you’re implying 🤔🙈🤔😂

MaybeDoctor - it is a very poor alternative for children, and safeguarding risks are probably higher.

But there is also a risk to leaving your children sleeping in your car or locked up alone at home, or at home with a caregiver who is not reliable or responsible. Or phoning in occasionally to make sure nobody has suffered any serious injury.

This is also known as "making it work" and apparently that is a good thing.

math you seem to have this assumption that anyone who does not have children is some social butterfly, existing only to party party party; while you are the only responsible person alive and so your needs are superior.

Unfortunately that adversarial "I'm better than you" attitude just doesn't work in the real world where everyone f all circumstances has to get along at their place of work (which has its own priorities which come above yours and mine)

MetorMedow Mathsanxiety's posts don't come across like that all. Yours on the other hand are really unpleasant and arrogant.

When I didn’t have kids the assumption that I would work late while others went home did annoy me. But it was true, I would and did because I wanted to advance my career. Employers use what they can get. If there was more culture of flexibility / employer crèches etc it would be better for everyone - but they mostly don’t because they don’t have to and so it would make them less competitive. Women (and some men, but mostly women) killing themselves to do everything is not a great solution. There must be work that can be done within flexible hours - it’s just really hard to find it (even if you’re ok being paid less). But if all the people who wanted to work this way and end up stuck at home could contribute we would all be better off. So yes I also think we could use less vitriol in the discussion.

I don’t think that’s what math is saying at all: purely that some flexibility should be granted. I generally think that’s good practice anyway.

Again, the 'you made your bed and now you must lie in it' argument, Meteor.

To hatred and resentment I will add smugness and mean spiritedness of sentiment.
Apparently, the superior people take the unreasonable demands of the workplace into account before 'choosing to procreate'.

When there are no more children being born, or too few children to work and pay taxes to keep everything ticking over, there won't be an economy.
www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/012315/how-demographics-drive-economy.asp
You can keep on complaining about the 'cheeky fuckery' of people who want to combine having children and working, or you can try to understand that your attitude and the basic premises of the way businesses are run are going to come back and bite you, and business, in the bum before too many decades have elapsed.

Genuine question - if you have childcare for babies at night for shiftworkers, who are going to look after the children during the day when the parent needs to sleep to catch up from their night shift ready for the next shift?

ShotsFired, no - not social butterflies, but certainly unreasonable if they put 'social life' on an equal footing with 'no way of taking care of children once childminder closes shop for the day at 6' and post here on a thread mocking parents who have stated this as a problem or implied it at an interview.

Unreasonable in what they expect parents to do, too. What exactly do they expect parents to do given that there are very few affordable child care options available from 6 to midnight or later, or on weekends?
A child is not like a cat who will amuse itself for hours while you are away.

Social life is a choice.

Childcare is a circle that can't be squared. It is an imperative.

People who reserve their ire for parents who can't work shifts or overtime should direct their anger to the employer who has put the employees in the position where they are resentful of each other.

'Divide and conquer' tactics are a problem in workplaces.

Noshow, childminders, nurseries, all day options in schools.