To think this woman was ridiculous

[lastqueenofscotland]

I am leaving my job and am helping interview for my replacement.

Just had an interview with a lady and were just confirming that everyone is expected to work one Saturday a month and there is some overtime (paid at 1.5x hourly rate) certain months of the year.
The woman said that wouldn’t work for her and we were like “oh it was in the job description” and she puffs out her chest and declares loudly
“But I am a mother I can’t believe you have NO flexibility for this.”

Colleague who is the mother of 4 inc an 18 month year old had to seriously bite her tongue.

It’s really annoyed me and I can’t work out why

Lots of research showing that women are penalised for negotiating anything. Like, you really can't win. Just saying.

I am a mother. I cannot work weekends for this reason (or could not: kids older now) because I had no one to look after them.

I am constantly amazed at the amount of women who apply for jobs clearly advertised as including some, "unsocial hours" element who raise no issues with this at interview and then, as soon as they start, begin to dictate what hours they are and are not prepared to work because of child care issues. We get loads of them where I work, including a couple who can't work particular days because they, "mind my grandchildren on that day each week".

Somewhere along the line people, and sorry to say this but women in particular, have acquired the notion that companies exist solely to provide them with a wage rather than that they should deliver what a company needs from them in order to get their wage!

Makes my blood boil.

It’s generally worth going to interviews to see what if anything can be negotiated. As for it making your blood boil, mine boils at the fact so many women are unable to work because of this very problem.

Can I ask the several people on this thread who have said that they can't/couldn't work weekends because of childcare issues - how many jobs did you apply for that stated a requirement for weekend work on the advertised job description? Why did you apply e.g. job centre push, thought it would be negotiable, didn't notice it when you applied?

Because hours can frequently be negotiated at interview.

They come up with all kinds of excuses about childcare and family time and think they can get away with giving all of the unsocial shifts away

The cheek of them, trying to cope with all of their responsibilities, and not taking into account the impact on other people's social lives.

Funny how the two different worlds of parents and those who are not parents are illustrated there - one person's 'unsocial shifts' is another person's 'what am I going to do with my toddler while I am working those mandatory evenings?'

Somewhere along the line the world of business has got a hold of the very strange notion that women have babies just to be a nuisance.

This would be akin to saying "well, I want to be a nurse and work in the hospital but I absolutely don't want to do any nights or weekends". Guess what - it comes with the territory. You can't tell someone he has to have his heart attack on Monday morning, or she has to postpone her pneumonia because it's Christmas and you want to spend time with your family.

There are some nursing positions where you DO work only days on weekdays - usually more community work, teaching, or elective surgery facilities. But generally you don't get to pick.

If she felt she couldn't do the work, why did she apply for the position?

Here is a shocking thought.

Someone trains as a nurse and then is left high and dry with the children.

Obviously, the sensible thing to do is to make her reliant on benefits and deskill her rather than coming to a flexible arrangement, right?

So mathanxiety, are you saying that those of us without children should automatically be expected to do the unsocial shifts to cover those with children?

continuallychargingmyphone

I worked with a nurse who was put in that exact situation. She told me herself that she raised 3 kids over the phone. She would go to work, call them to make sure they got up and got ready for school, call after school to make sure they had got home okay, etc. She worked 12-hour day and night shifts at the time.

It's hard but not impossible.

Some of my nursing students have been single parents or working parents. None of them tell me "oh, I can't do evening clinical because of my kids". They make it work.

Some people with children may find it easier to manage unsociable hours than sociable like couples who can’t really afford childcare so stagger working hours between the two.
So it’s not just none parents who would have to cover

I was on the PTA of my son’s school and we every year arranged at outing to a Christmas show/Panto for about 150 children. We obviously neede loads of adult help and always canvassed at the PTA meetings for volunteers. One woman who had never done anything positive and had clearly joined the committee for an opportunity to schmooze up to the Headmaster was directly asked if she’d help and protested loudly,
‘But I couldn’t possibly give up an afternoon- you see, it’s Christmas and I have children.’ Er..........and?

Really ag?

Because for me it would have been impossible. I had no one to have my children and childcare providers are closed at weekends and overnight

The problem is that social, financial and political pressures are applied to people to find and remain in work, but systems and support services haven’t yet caught up. Children don’t seem to have read the manual yet, either!

There isn’t even yet a mechanism to require NRP to spend time with their children so many resident single parents (mostly women) are going to find it rather tricky to meet Saturday working requirements.

Mothers...damned if we stay at home and bring our kids up, either on benefits or being supported by a partner. And damned if we try and go back to work and ask for hours that make life less stressful.

It's why we need this:

www.bfawu.org/the_bfawu_are_proud_to_support_the_call_for_a_real_living_wage_for_mothers_and_carers

Problem solved!

I’m just hitting the job market having been made redundant after more than 20 years. I left a job with lots of flexibility and part time hours. I’ve been advised by my ‘career coach’ that you don’t talk about money/ flexibility/ part time until an offer has been made and at that point you discuss what you would need to take the job. But politely, ‘I would love this role but the Saturday would be impossible for me’. The employer can then decide whether they want you enough to accommodate that, or not.

So mathanxiety, are you saying that those of us without children should automatically be expected to do the unsocial shifts to cover those with children?

If the shifts are absolutely necessary and everyone is equally committed to the business, why wouldn't you be willing to support (1) those among your fellow women who have no options for childcare and (2) the business on which your livelihood depends.
So 'Yes', basically.

Do you think single mothers are all out carousing while you are slaving away?

If you were paid appropriately for the hours, why would you be resentful?

Expecting people to "make it work" amounts to the placing of an additional barrier to employment on single mothers and even many who have a partner.

The thought of a woman phoning to wake up children and make sure they got up and out to school is frankly appalling and I am stunned that anyone would consider this ok.
How lucky that woman was that she didn't have toddlers to manage by phone .

I honestly don't see why opting out of chaperoning an unnecessary and inconveniently timed outing because of childcare responsibilities is a problem, Arthur2shedsJackson.
What was this woman going to do with her children while chaperoning other people's children?

What has her motivation in joining the PTA to do with the basic issue of availability of someone to take care of her children in her absence?

The expectation that people who volunteer their time should be able to afford childcare and have childcare lined up to call on for any occasion is one of the main reasons why many talented women steer clear of volunteering in schools and other community organisations.

And to the person upthread who complained about grandparents who have grandchildren to take care of one day a week, do you realise that without free childcare provided by grandparents for a day or two per week, many parents would simply not be able to afford to work?

@mathanxiety ... and those who seem to believe they deserve or are entitled to ‘special treatment’ because they chose to procreate.

🤔 perhaps you could consider finding, applying for and (fingers crossed) getting jobs which actually fit around your capabilities and stop being CF’s? We all know that ‘desirable parent friendly hours’ are coveted and those jobs go immediately but perhaps you could have considered how you would balance working/childcare before you had a baby! Applying for jobs you know you can’t do and then throwing around demands once you start, is ridiculous CF’ery!

🤔 choosing to procreate is nobody else’s problem and you are not more entitled to ‘look after your children’ than your colleague is to ‘have a social life’.

Expecting your colleagues to pick up your slack and feeling you ‘deserve’ this makes you a CF pure and simple!

The last team I worked In had one woman who couldn’t do anything because ‘she was a mother’ she was a nightmare and nobody wanted to buddy up with her (buddies covered each other so had to alternate working hours and holidays) but we were a small team (8 people) so one of us always had to take the hit! We had to work late everyday when buddied with her as she ‘had to leave to get her kids’!

One day a guy from another department moved to our team and offered to buddy with her - a week later and she’s creating to our manager because the chap had told her he has to leave at 4pm to ‘pick up his kids’ - turned out his wife was some crazy high earner and he was the kids primary carer! 😂😂😂

She kicked off something rotten ‘my kids will be sat in the playground’ whilst our manager explained that she didn’t have any more right to pick up her kids than he did to pick up his! Was really obvious that she thought she was more entitled as she was a woman 🤔😂

The chap was perfectly nice and offered to split the week/ school holidays with her 50/50 - apparently this wasn’t good enough!

• And Arthur2sheds, I bet the parents of the children going to the panto were thrilled that their DCs were off their hands in the busy run up to Christmas so they could get some preparations done for the holiday. Or a few extra hours at work so they could pay for it all.

I've had some difficult interviews in my time. There was the young man who turned up with his mother and proceeded to ask where in the office she would sit during the day if he got the job. He explained that she liked to supervise him, therefore she had to come to work with him. He seemed surprised when he didn't get the job . Then there was the man who sent a CV in with a picture (a bearded giant of a being) who turned up dressed as a woman. I should add that this was well over 20 years ago. It was a shock to say the least. Then there was the woman who seemed ever so promising and was offered and took the job, but took two weeks off after her first day because her dog went missing. These were my city days, long gone...now I am a single mother with zero support. I have an ASD child. I could only reasonably work school hours and indeed with the degree of flexibility that would allow me to drop everything and go if needs be. That doesn't exist. I sympathise in terms of childcare, even without the added stress of a child with SEN, but then in my view, you don't apply for a job where you would have to rely on it.

Last month I volunteered for an event on a Saturday. DH was with our DCs.

It was exclusively for parents. I was in charge of asking people a few details including were they at the event to volunteer 'oh no I have children' err yes. So do we all! (Appreciate they might not have had a DH or he was working but it was the way they used their children as an excuse not their lack of childcare)

those who seem to believe they deserve or are entitled to ‘special treatment’ because they chose to procreate.

And there it is - the hatred and deep seated resentment towards parents that always lurks beneath threads like this.

'Entitlement' - an interesting way to frame a matter of responsibility towards children;
'Pick up your slack'
'CF'
'Choosing to procreate'
Cold heartedness towards children
Woman vs man with childcare responsibilities - an interesting twist here, adds to the general misogyny.

Bingo!

The only sense of entitlement I see here is the feeling of entitlement to a social life.

One of my first jobs out of education, massive global company (so had proper HR processes etc), 2 interviews, induction and contract all done/confirmed and I was all set to be commuting with a relative who worked in the adjacent building every day.

Until week 1, when they broke the news there were 3 shifts worked on a weekly rotation.

Had to borrow cash to pass driving test and get transport sorted within the month!

I worked with a nurse who was put in that exact situation. She told me herself that she raised 3 kids over the phone. She would go to work, call them to make sure they got up and got ready for school, call after school to make sure they had got home okay, etc. She worked 12-hour day and night shifts at the time.

Awwww what a lovely story. Warms the cockles of your heart

It's hard but not impossible.

Some of my nursing students have been single parents or working parents. None of them tell me "oh, I can't do evening clinical because of my kids". They make it work.

That's right women. And if you don't "make it work" it's because you are slackers. Life really is that simple