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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To agree that Tony Martin's murder conviction should be over turned?

342 replies

FeckingEll · 16/11/2018 00:11

Just read an article that he is appealing against his conviction so his name is cleared before he dies. It always troubled me.

Putting myself in the position of living in a isolated farm which had been continously burgled, probably living in a state of hyper vigilance. Home invaded by a group of young men in the middle of the night. It was not right that he shot when they were not actually advancing towards him but he wouldn't have known that they weren't going to turn round and come back.

He didn't seek anyone out to kill them and he couldn't have been expected to have taken account of the age of the people who had invaded his home.

Much was made of him 'booby trapping' his house but who wouldn't so you could hear if anyone got in while you were sleeping?

The people responsible for the 16 year olds death were the adults who took him with them to invade someone else's house! It could easily have been Tony who was murdered. If someone invades your home in the middle of the night, you can expect that to be a potential outcome, no?

The way Tony was portrayed in the media was abhorrent especially as it has come out that he is on the autism spectrum.

?

OP posts:
Holdingonbarely · 16/11/2018 20:22

We don’t have capital punishment in this country
Nuff said.

user1457017537 · 16/11/2018 20:24

I’m saying as a 16 year old he could marry and join the Army with his parents’ consent.
Strange definition of a child (and very fluid).

IAmNotLikeThem · 16/11/2018 20:25

Well it was put to the Vote by the Jury. Is this an analagous thread?

cricketmum84 · 16/11/2018 20:33

I'd be interested to hear what you think should happen to child abusers and rapists. Medieval style torture?

Sounds about right to me!

Eilaianne · 16/11/2018 20:35

Many people severely underestimate the impact being a victim of crime can have on your mental stability and judgement.

Being burgled multiple times in an isolated location with no police effectiveness or support to prevent being a victim again and again...

I think the biggest issue here is not his conviction of whether the scum who entered his property were victims, but the massive lack of justice Tony Martin had before this incident. People like him were and are failed by a social structure and policing setup that just expected him to keep taking it!

Why aren't we talking more about that, oh, because some scumbag 16 year old got shot for burglarizing and terrorising a a normal citizen?!?!?

lljkk · 16/11/2018 20:43

What's wrong with a society that produces 16 yr olds with 29 convictions. We could all hang our heads in shame over that.

twattymctwatterson · 16/11/2018 20:52

The fact is whether people have an opinion that we should be able to kill anyone who commits a crime against us, the law is very clear. This wasn't self defence, this was a revenge killing. There was plenty of physical evidence that Martin was in the same room as the burglars when he shot at them, that he shot at them multiple times and that he was fairly close (gunshot residue). He had form for shooting at people and property, he had illegal firearms, there was plenty of eyewitness testimony that he had been clear this was something he intended to do to anyone who broke into his house. He killed a 16 year old boy who I'm sure was a little shit, but who was no danger to him and he did it deliberately. He's never shown the least bit of remorse either. So yeah, you're entitled to your opinion that he should be able to murder anyone who comes into his property but the law disagrees and I don't think there's the least chance his conviction will be overturned

LaDaronne · 16/11/2018 20:58

There have been a whoolllllleeee bunch of people shot in America for mixing up house numbers / teenagers sneaking into their own houses at night / knocking on a door after a car accident. Sounds like some people on here would be OK with that Hmm

Miscible · 16/11/2018 20:59

I’m saying as a 16 year old he could marry and join the Army with his parents’ consent. Strange definition of a child (and very fluid).

What's strange about it? By law, people under 18 are children. It's not in the least fluid.

Birdsgottafly · 16/11/2018 21:14

I can remember at the time a Police Officer bringing the point up that he shot into the darkness. If there had have been a Police response to the burglary, it could have been a Police Officer that was shot.

Which happens a lot in the U.S.

So the lads on illegal scrambler bikes, they're 14-17, can we just mow them down?

Kids who drop litter? If we can kill a child that's being coerced into crime, does that mean I can walk round all day smacking kids around the head?

What about other Adults? Is road rage now OK?

trumpdump · 16/11/2018 21:21

Sadly, there are no winners in this sad story.

What the farmer did was wrong, but I think he has to tell himself he was in the right. How could he live with himself otherwise? In his situation, I'd be fighting to clear my name too.

user1457017537 · 17/11/2018 07:03

Children who can marry and join the Army. Strange definition of a “child”.

MaisyPops · 17/11/2018 07:10

The 16 year old was a common criminal and clearly a little shit with no regard for the law.

But he didn't deserve to be shot in the back whilst running away. That shooting wasn't legitimate self defence.

I'd happily see harsher sentences for bulglary and there's something to be said for the lack of justice Tony Martin got for previous break ins, but saying it's ok to
use illegal firearms to shoot isn't a path I want to go down.

ForalltheSaints · 17/11/2018 07:16

The only issue to me is whether it was manslaughter or murder.

Two other thoughts- had it been the US the burglars no doubt would have had a gun, and perfectly legally no doubt, and secondly, had he chased them in a car and hit them, I doubt he would have faced a murder charge given the double standards we have with motoring.

marcopront · 17/11/2018 07:27

@Nottalotta
You say A few hundred yards from where I lived at the time.
I thought it was a remote farm house.

Seniorschoolmum · 17/11/2018 07:32

Personally I think it should have been manslaughter, because having been repeatedly burgled, being one against two who have broken in to your house, at night, miles from the nearest police station and knowing no help in coming, has got to affect your levels of fear & adrenaline. Thinking calmly & logically in those circumstances isn’t easy. The fact the burglar was 16 is a red herring - how was he to know that?
If he had been convicted of manslaughter, I’d say the conviction should stand.

But murder - I’m still not convinced.

ButchyRestingFace · 17/11/2018 07:45

If he had been convicted of manslaughter, I’d say the conviction should stand.

He was convicted of manslaughter - that's why he only served 3 years. The initial verdict was guilty of murder but this was reduced to manslaughter on appeal due to "diminished responsibility".

Seniorschoolmum · 17/11/2018 07:47

Yes, just checked it. Smile. So I think the revised sentence was fair and shouldn’t be overturned.

Miscible · 17/11/2018 08:02

user1457017537, at one point people of 14 could marry. Do you think that means they aren't children now? if you don't think 16 year olds should be defined as children you need to lobby your MP. But as things stand at present, they definitely are.

BasilFaulty · 17/11/2018 09:06

Posters who are still, 10 pages on, justifying his behaviour despite massive amounts of further information, need to give their heads a wobble.
I'm a police officer and spent two years in the burglary unit. It's a horrible, invasive crime. But as cops we can only use force on a subject to gain control. As soon as that control is achieved we stop using the force. Anything above and beyond that is misuse of force and simple punishment and red mist.
There's a lot, lot more to the Martin case than the press have reported. I don't know any coppers, even the most old school, who think what he did was justified. I think that speaks volumes.

ButchyRestingFace · 17/11/2018 09:21

This, according to Wikipedia:

"Martin had his shotgun certificate revoked in 1994 after he found a man scrumping for apples in his orchard and shot a hole in the back of his vehicle"

(FFS!)

HopeGarden · 17/11/2018 09:46

secondly, had he chased them in a car and hit them, I doubt he would have faced a murder charge given the double standards we have with motoring

I’d be wary of assuming that.

There was a man killed in that way near where I live a few years back - following a dispute, he was chased by a car, subsequently ran over and fatally injured.

IIRC, the driver was initially charged with murder but convicted of manslaughter after pleading guilty to manslaughter.

BasilFaulty · 17/11/2018 11:35

Here's more, this time in the Sun yesterday:

*There’s no lights in my house. My bedroom, that night, was the only place there was a light. I was sure someone was coming up the stairs . . .

“I took the gun out, loaded it, waited and it seemed like for ever . . .  I had no choice.”

He says he was creeping down the stairs when a torch light was flashed in his face and he fired.

Martin recalls: “What do I do? Who is it? All these things in a flash. I just couldn’t stand it much longer. I just let the gun off.”

He shot at the intruders three times before leaving the house and getting in his car. He is asked why he didn’t call the police straight away, instead driving to his mum’s house, hiding his gun in her toilet*

RedneckStumpy · 17/11/2018 11:54

Two other thoughts- had it been the US the burglars no doubt would have had a gun, and perfectly legally no doubt,

No it’s illegal for a convicted felon to own a firearm. The kid involved had a police record like that looked like the CV of a demon.

christmaaaas · 17/11/2018 12:15

Burglars are scum bags. I agree with you.