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AIBU?

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Original poster

To agree that Tony Martin's murder conviction should be over turned?

342 replies

FeckingEll · 16/11/2018 00:11

Just read an article that he is appealing against his conviction so his name is cleared before he dies. It always troubled me.

Putting myself in the position of living in a isolated farm which had been continously burgled, probably living in a state of hyper vigilance. Home invaded by a group of young men in the middle of the night. It was not right that he shot when they were not actually advancing towards him but he wouldn't have known that they weren't going to turn round and come back.

He didn't seek anyone out to kill them and he couldn't have been expected to have taken account of the age of the people who had invaded his home.

Much was made of him 'booby trapping' his house but who wouldn't so you could hear if anyone got in while you were sleeping?

The people responsible for the 16 year olds death were the adults who took him with them to invade someone else's house! It could easily have been Tony who was murdered. If someone invades your home in the middle of the night, you can expect that to be a potential outcome, no?

The way Tony was portrayed in the media was abhorrent especially as it has come out that he is on the autism spectrum.

?

OP posts:
ButchyRestingFace · 16/11/2018 15:41

Well can I just ask what posters would do if they faced two burglars in their home in the early hours of the morning after previously being burgled on several occasions. It’s pitch dark and you are in a remote, run down farmhouse. Alone.

Well, no-one can say with any degree of accuracy, but I'd like to think I wouldn't shoot them in the back as they beat a hasty retreat out the window.

Far less continue to maintain 20 years hence that I'm not sorry I did it, don't regret it, would do it again and am not sorry that a 16 year old is dead.

user1457017537 · 16/11/2018 15:47

I think you might benefit from trying to understand the fear involved in that situation. No one has the right to enter someone’s home to rob them. Are you under the misapprehension that they would politely ask you to hand over your valuables.

lljkk · 16/11/2018 15:50

I noticed a would-be (male) burglar on a flat roof once (at time, I was on the ground). In the dark, alone & nobody else around or at home.

"Oh tell me you aren't actually planning to rob that house!" were the words that came out of my mouth. I pottered went inside & he jumped down & ran away. Just about remembered to tell my housemates later & the neighbours came around to thank me later.

-Not a hero!

Martin played part of judge jury & executioner in that moment. It's not rule of law, is it? Anyone else recall the British guy shot dead in Florida, ~20 yrs ago. The victim's car had broken down miles from anywhere, he went around to the back of a house to knock on door to ask for help, because he could see lights were on. The shooter was acquitted of any crime since they argued they believed it could only be a burglar shouting at their back door. Their belief was good enough to let them kill someone.

Sparrowlegs248 · 16/11/2018 15:54

He was convicted of manslaughter wasn't he? And he did indeed live at the house at the time of the shooting. A few hundred yards from where I lived at the time.

Sparrowlegs248 · 16/11/2018 15:56

Also "previously good character" is an absolutely bizarre statement for anyone to make. There's plenty of people who would disagree.

ButchyRestingFace · 16/11/2018 15:59

I think you might benefit from trying to understand the fear involved in that situation. No one has the right to enter someone’s home to rob them. Are you under the misapprehension that they would politely ask you to hand over your valuables.

When they are retreating out of the window I don't think they are going to ask me for anything, politely or otherwise.

I have absolutely no issue with an occupant shooting dead a burglar they genuinely believe to be posing an immediate threat to their safety/life. Fill your boots, I say.

But in this case, it is difficult to see how Martin genuinely believed his life to be in immediate danger when the victim was scarpering out the window in high haste. Furthermore, Martin had reportedly declared his intention beforehand to wait for the next set of burglars with a loaded gun. And even 20 years distance hasn't given him cause to reflect on whether his actions taken that night were proportionate or even to express regret for the loss of life.

PatchworkElmer · 16/11/2018 15:59

This is a very emotive subject, isn’t it. Because you immediately think of protecting your family, what if my children were in danger, the fear of being faced with someone breaking in when you’re asleep an vulnerable.

That wasn’t the case there though. There was clearly a certain amount of pre-planning in the event of a break-in. That shows intent, and that the shooting wasn’t spur of the moment. They were running away, so it wasn’t self defence. It was murder.

ButchyRestingFace · 16/11/2018 16:01

I have absolutely no issue with an occupant shooting dead a burglar they genuinely believe to be posing an immediate threat to their safety/life. Fill your boots, I say.

I should qualify that by saying *genuinely believe AND have good cause to believe.

Caprisunorange · 16/11/2018 16:06

User I don’t have a gun, and don’t know how to use a gun. So when you say

Well can I just ask what posters would do if they faced two burglars in their home in the early hours of the morning after previously being burgled on several occasions. It’s pitch dark and you are in a remote, run down farmhouse. Alone

Surely you realise the majority of people can’t answer “shot them dead like Tony Martin” ?!??

RedDeadRoach · 16/11/2018 16:07

To the posters here who say that if you break into someones house you deserve what you get. If your child fell into a bad crowd when they were 15 or 16 and were led or coerced or encouraged into burgling someone's house and they were shot and killed as they were running away from the property would you think that they deserved it? Or would you rather the householder hadn't shot them and that your child could have then faced their punishment in court rather than being murdered?

user1457017537 · 16/11/2018 16:17

And maybe they were retreating out of the window because they saw the gun. Would probably have been a very different outcome for Mr Martin had he not had a gun. As I have stated previously people who come into your home in the deadbof night are not just going to politely ask you to hand over your belongings. The man in Hither Green was, quite rightly, in fear of his life.

And by the way were FB and BF not related? FB was being taken on the robbery by a family member.

Holdingonbarely · 16/11/2018 16:19

No not had the right to rob a house
No one has the right to kill someone running away from them,
It’s literally that simple. Everything is dealt with by our justice systems and our laws. If you don’t like them, campaign to your mp

user1457017537 · 16/11/2018 16:35

I wouldn’t bother campaigning at all to be honest. If you think the law is justice then you are sorely mistaken.

Miscible · 16/11/2018 16:40

You break into someone's home with the intent to commit a crime you take your chances.

If that becomes the law, we're all potentially at risk. Someone falls out with a neighbour, invites them to their home and shoots them and is able to say they thought the neighbour was a trespasser. Or someone with dementia wanders into the wrong house by accident, bang, they're dead, too bad, they took their chances even if they didn't intend to commit a crime.

ButchyRestingFace · 16/11/2018 16:42

And maybe they were retreating out of the window because they saw the gun. Would probably have been a very different outcome for Mr Martin had he not had a gun

Maybe they were. We'll never know.

But he still went from having the gun and (possibly) letting them know he had a gun, to firing said gun at someone and killing them. That person was in retreat and posed no threat at the moment of being killed.

I think TM was very lucky that the murder conviction was downgraded.

I'm assuming he's isn't currently trying to appeal the manslaughter conviction?

Miscible · 16/11/2018 16:47

I'd never read the appeal judgement in this case until now. After reading that, it's even more obvious he should never have been charged for anything other than having an unlicensed gun.

OP, could you explain what qualifications and experience you have which means that you know better than not only the members of the jury but also the appeal court judges?

Meralia it's irrelevant in that Martin did not have deliberate intent to kill a child.

What the law requires for a murder conviction is an intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm. On Martin's own admission, he had that intention. Agreed, it's not directly relevant that the victim was a child; but nevertheless, the fact that he was a child illustrates the dangers of the "it's fine to kill all burglars" mindset.

ginghamstarfish · 16/11/2018 17:14

Yes I agree, he shouldn't have been in prison for so long. Rap on the knuckles yes, but if you illegally enter someone's house by force with intent to rob/hurt/murder then you get what you deserve. If a criminal doesn't want to face that risk then they have the choice to NOT commit the crime ... pretty bloody obvious. Should have aimed to wound but not kill though.

Holdingonbarely · 16/11/2018 19:28

He served three years for killing someone!
On purpose.
I mean, that does not sound like a lot in my book. He should have taken it and shut the fuck up. But there is something about him that just keeps on wanting to be in the press... funny that

user1457017537 · 16/11/2018 19:32

FB May be classed as a child nowadays but in TM’s lifetime children if 14 would have been in full time employment. All the posters calling him a child he was old enough to get married.

BertrandRussell · 16/11/2018 19:35

Really? The school leaving age went to 15 in 1947. How old is Martin?

Holdingonbarely · 16/11/2018 19:36

@user1457017537
That Actually made me laugh out loud!

ButchyRestingFace · 16/11/2018 19:58

FB May be classed as a child nowadays but in TM’s lifetime children if 14 would have been in full time employment. All the posters calling him a child he was old enough to get married.

That is the strangest argument I've seen in a while.

I'm surprised you didn't allude to the fact that capital punishment (albeit not for burglary) was on the statute books in TM's lifetime.

Aridane · 16/11/2018 19:58

Would probably have been a very different outcome for Mr Martin had he not had a gun.

Yes - he wouldn’t have mirdered a 16 year old and been sentenced to life. And the. Refused parole because of his ongoing threat to the public and lack of remorse

Sparklesocks · 16/11/2018 20:13

user1457017537 not really sure how that’s relevant? In the 90s when this happened 16 year olds were (and still are) legally classed as children. We govern laws based on the present, not the past.

Sedona123 · 16/11/2018 20:20

YANBU.

If you attempt to burgle someone else's home then you deserve whatever happens to you. The fact that the "innocent 16 year old child" already had 29 convictions says it all really.