Is it unreasonable to say you feel uncomfortable around people when you can only see their eyes

[SailAwayWithMeHuni]

This isn’t meant to cause any offence, I’ve just been asked the question by a 12 year old and I’m not sure how to respond.

Context is that a group of girls at school were discussing whether older people are racist and someone stated that they feel uncomfortable when you can only see someones eyes.

I think its racist because this is basically singling out something many Western people are uncomfortable with in the Muslim religion to make a point.

@FFSFFSFFS I don’t see how a woman wanting to cover up for non-religious reasons would possibly be “pathalogical”. I prefer to be more covered up, and I’m not religious in the traditional sense, because I prefer not to be on display. What would that be “pathological””

And why is assumed that a woman covers up for religious reasons because she’s forced to? I’ve known quite a few women who cover up because they feel it is respectful to their God; a decision they’ve come to through their personal religious beliefs rather than because it’s been foisted on them by The Patriarchy.

Are women really deemed not to be able to make their own decisions unless it’s the ‘right’ one, as decided by someone else’s views?

FFSFFSFFS

I think it is to do with that. Some Islamic scholars talk also of a metaphorical veil for women in addition to the physical, whereby men must avert their gaze from a woman and not sexualized her. In fact some Islamic scholars go so far as seeing the home as a veil in itself (I remember reading a ridiculous account where they were stating that since a woman's voice can be seductive, a woman should not acknowledge a visitor knocking on her door but rather she should clap her hands to alert them to her presence).

That having been said, many of the women I know who wear niqab do so genuinely as an act of worship for God - the additional hardship of wearing a full veil along with distancing themselves from general society are two reasons I've heard cited. In fact many women who wear niqab come from families or social groups where they are actively discouraged from wearing the niqab.

However, as I said upthread, it is not an actual Islamic requirement with any real basis in the Qur'an. Personally I disagree with it for most of the reasons that PPs have stated upthread (difficulties communicating, the self-distancing, the patriarchal backdrop from which it stemmed from).

You can't help what you feel, and feelings aren't reasonable, rational things. You can help your actions however, so I think as long as you genuinely try to treat people the same, even if aspects of their culture or lifestyle and culture make you uncomfortable, then you're not being unreasonable

Think that's just it isn't it. I mean I certainly know fuck all about it. I know what I think with regards to what I feel about people having the freedom to wear what they want when they want.

And even if the people saying men makimg women wear it etc ar right well the answer is hardly to isolate them further by not talking to them . That doesn't solve any perceived problems with the whole thing does it.

Any difficulties are mine to over come sane way I have to when a customer who doesn't speak English comes in. We smile and try our best to communicate and be polite

And “pathological” refers to a physical or mental disease. How on earth can a woman’s decision as to what she wears and why be a DISEASE?

I have to say, I don't think they should be allowed on school premises, for the reason that you just have no idea who they are.

It does seem bizarre that primary school teachers often have to go outside with their cohorts and visually check who is picking up each child, yet people can come into the school premises wearing a niqab - you have no idea who they are - and that hasn't been raised as a security concern.

If I turned up wearing a balaclava, and parents complained, I'd be soon asked to stop for security reasons, but for some reason if someone is superstitious in a religious sense, that seems to over-ride security concerns for our children at the moment.

Plus there is the feminist angle. It really is a very dehumanising garb.

Not a big fan tbh.

This thread is racist. It was meant ti be racist and anyone who can;t see that is fucking stupid.

Just one more thing to add though- there was a woman who lived round the corner from me in London who used to wear a hot pink burqa. Thought that was fantastic! I don't understand why so many Muslim women tend to only wear black. In my culture Muslim women tend to wear colourful clothing (and many of us don't veil at all)!

@BrightYellowDaffodil - not wanting to leave the house unless your entire body is completely covered up suggests an unhealthy phobia or other significant psychological concern.

Another poster suggests that some young women do it because they're insecure about their looks so that suggests an unhealthy psychological element.

And for sure - a woman may indeed choose to do so. I think my point is though that it is a significant choice to make and I am not persuaded that its one that a major of women would make if there were not external pressures.

So my concern is that there are women who would not choose do so if there were not external pressures.

I imagine it must be physically uncomfortable? But again don't speak from a place of personal knowledge on that.

How is it racist? Nothing to do with skin colour at all.

I have taught classes with Muslim women in them for many years, I currently have Muslim women with headscarves, Muslim women without them, Muslim women in short sleeves and a couple with dyed hair and tattoos.
For the first time ever 2 weeks ago I interviewed a lady for a class who was fully covered bar her eyes. She even had gloves on. It didn't bother me really but I would've liked to see her face. As long as it's what she wants then that is ok. I'm not a fan of it though, especially in a language class.

I don't see how the thread is racist? There's a few Muslim women here (myself included) who evidently see this as a valid and interesting conversation that is being conducted in good faith.

I wouldn't treat someone differently for wearing a niqab (I have friends and colleagues who wear it), but that doesn't mean I agree with it and think that it is appropriate for going out into public in.

This is exactly what I was saying in my post medusa! I don't get it. How can they know it's their parent? There's a few parents at my child's school who wear it

I'd also like to say most my family are Asian, and I've always lived and worked in very working-class Muslim areas so am fully aware of the nuance, how lovely many are, but also some of the cultural issues.

Nothing to do with skin colour? I rather think it is. You all fell for it again.

Our infant teachers have to stand at the door at home time and assign each child to a recognised parent/carer.
How does that work if they are veiled? What is the procedure then?

Fluffythrow can you please explain to me how my thread is racist?

Seems to me you are on the same wave length as the girl who is accusing my niece of being racist so your articulated reasons may help us to understand where she is coming from.

I really don't think it is. We had a big "hoodie" debacle/moral panic about a decade or so ago. Mainly white youths.

It would actually make the whole argument a lot easier if the wearers of these were mainly white as it would be easier to criticise this from a feminist and security point of view without people shouting "racist" at you.

There are a fair few white women who wear them.

Ultimately though I think there are many many items of clothing that everyone wears , that make sone basic things like communicating, or moving in certain ways, or whatever difficult.

Surgeons have to communicate with masks and scrub caps on
It's not an isolated issue

@FFSFFSFFS I think you’re attributing causes to women’s decisions quite narrowly.

I prefer to cover up more than most and frankly I don’t care if someone “isn’t convinced” by my reasoning. It’s my choice and mine alone. In addition, I’ve been to countries where it was a legal requirement to be extensively covered and no, it’s not ‘uncomfortable’. You just choose clothes that you like. If you - as you say - have no experience in this area, why not go and find out from those that DO?

Your fixation on “pathology” and “psychological concern” is, at best, misplaced.

@BrightYellowDaffodil Having a negative opinion of something is not being intolerant FFS. I live in a high muslim area but i don't go about pulling the coverings of women's faces because i can't tolerate them! I tolerate it, but i don't like it. That's how tolerance works. Get off your high horse.

@Fluffythrow A religion is not a race you utter bellend. I see a lot of white muslims in my area. Did they change race along with religion? Thought not!

I dont feel uncomfortable but sometimes i think they may be. Iv a lot of muslim friends from travelling to predominantly muslim places and many of the women i spoke to made their own choice on their level of coverage.

It's not religion though.

It's Culture

Totally different

Doesn't bother me but has just occurred to me that that's because I'm referring to women. It would definitely concern me if men took to walking around with their faces covered and I would suspect their motives and avoid them.