...to think that if Comic Relief are going to do a "Woman Wednesday" blog about "inspirational female figures", it should have an inspirational female figure in it?

[ArcheryAnnie]

Comic Relief are doing a new weekly blog, about inspirational women.

"Women Wednesday’s is our new weekly column for Gender Justice month here at Comic Relief, where we will be giving the spotlight to one inspirational female figure per week. We focus on women who have created change and spearheaded movements for other women, and stood up against discrimination against gender and sexuality."

Fantastic, right? They've got links to all kinds of amazing women, working in very challenging conditions across the world, who are helping to create a better world for everyone, not just themselves. What a brilliant blog theme! What brilliant, inspirational woman are we all going to learn about today, I wonder?

Well. Here's who they picked as their "inspirational female figure": www.comicrelief.com/news/women-wednesdays-heres-why-lili-elbe-our-inspirational-figure-week

Women deserve better, Comic Relief. You've really screwed up on this one.

I didn't realise people were against intersex self-identification, Did you read what else I wrote in that post? That's 2 obfuscations in 1.

No body is against anyone self identifying as anything, we HAVE had that out before! Identify as a pink neon fairy and go play hopscotch on a mountain for all I care.

You know that. We have discussed that numerous times before. I have seen other posters correct you, multiple times. Stop it! It makes you read as being very desperate to deliberately misrepresent so very many people. Out of interest, sort of, why do you persist in doing that?

Really looking forward to perfectly coming back after she's watched the Netflix doc on Rachel D and giving her opinion on it.

If you read both articles I think they are talking about choosing to live as/identify as (gender) as the best match for an individual. It doesn't change the chromosomal biology which involves an active Y chromosome (sex). Stopping here as this is derailing.

Apart from their choice of individual for this, did anybody look at the graphic they used for gender justice - a big purple background with gender justice in yellow and three large white fists...

What did others think of that?

My first reaction was that it was a picture of three large white threatening male fists, standing up aggressively together... No need to go any further into the video to know exactly what was coming - there was no way there was going to be a proper woman chosen if they are using that as the backdrop to their campaign.

And maybe they should just have Frock Fridays for any people that they want to celebrate wearing a dress - to keep it simple (and to go alongside male mondays, trans tuesdays, woman wednesday and trans again thursday)...

Curious I don't mean to rub you up the wrong way because aside from our disagreeing you don't seem such a bad sort. But for one reason or another we just cannot communicate. You don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and I do believe that's genuine and you''re not deliberately trying to misrepresent me. i also don't believe I'm such a poor communicator that there is something wrong with my delivery, I think it's just perhaps a "you and me" thing. But we're not getting anywhere, are we.

No body is against anyone self identifying as anything, we HAVE had that out before!

This is a prime example of our talking at cross purposes; you're saying "I don't care what you identify as!", but the point I'm making is you will not recognise them as what they identify as. You would not accept their self-identification as being the case. I'm saying I didn't realise that anyone would tell and intersex person that they wouldn't accept them as the sex they say they are.

Honestly, i don't know how to be clearer. I'm quite sure a good many people understand me, but perhaps our starting points are too different. But FYI, posters don't "correct" me; this always makes me laugh. To be honest that's probably why we can't communicate, because you're coming at this determined that everything I say will be wrong and everything I'm "told" will be right; you're not following the points being made. There's nothing I can do to improve this dialogue whilst that's the case I'm afraid.

But, you know, I keep on keeping on. I suppose it will have to be more us expressing our opinion than engaging in a two way conversation though, so long as that's okay.

I've complained.

I put:

Seriously? Out of the many, many, many inspirational women you could have chosen to feature in your piece, you chose a man. Have you ANY idea how insulting this is to women. Women - you know those pesky uterus-holding adult humans, who are gradually losing all of their spaces, sex-based rights, vocabulary to describe themselves and media representation.

So much "woke", not enough "wakey-wakey".

I've complained too.

If you read both articles I think they are talking about choosing to live as/identify as (gender) as the best match for an individual. It doesn't change the chromosomal biology which involves an active Y chromosome (sex). Stopping here as this is derailing

They're not. One the first page of their website they say women can be XXY, but it isn't called Klinefelter's syndrome (despite the same genetic composition) because the symptoms aren't an issue for a woman. Presumably the difference between an XXY woman and an XXY man are the genitals observed at birth.

It's hardly derailing when you're complaining about a woman being recognised as such, when you might very well not be complaining if it were in fact true that she was intersex!

You would not accept their self-identification as being the case. I'm saying I didn't realise that anyone would tell and intersex person that they wouldn't accept them as the sex they say they are. I accept self identification. I used to use preferred pronouns without a second thought, nowadays I use them, but do think twice.

I WHOLLY ACCEPT every trans person I come across as the GENDER they identify as. But I do not think that human beings can change sex.

I WHOLLY ACCEPT every intersex person I might ever come across as the GENDER they identify as, and, because they have to make a decision based on their accident of genetics, I would also accept them as the SEX the identify as.

I too have been very clear, and have never contradicted myself. The corrections I am talking about are not your perceptions, but when you persist in ascribing thoughts and motives to people/feminists when you have been told categorically that you are wrong/have misunderstood.

So much "woke", not enough "wakey-wakey”

Love this!!

Somebody posted this yesterday, very good article.

janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/?fbclid=IwAR39mlAJdTef_MxIkVDIgp996tYb31zasK8wQ72PDpTJHIXdzj_mjOD3iDc

I'm not reading that again Aeroflotgirl

I laughed too loudly, nodded too emphatically and was generally far too impressed the first time round

It summed it up beautifully Curious, for those who haven't seen it.

I have used it to break cover and have shared it in my real life. It is, indeed, a work of beauty!

I mean she was a woman to me anyway

What thought process does your brain go through when almost everyone on the planet is a woman to you?

What factors do you use to determine whether a human is male or female? Is it just on their say so every time?

I have shared it too on Facebook, it is totally true. Men should not be featuring on this inspirational women by Comic Relief, and yes they are still men, as you cannot realistically change sex. They can identify themselves as being a women, but in reality they are not! You cannot put bunny ears and a tail on a pig and call it a Rabbit because it is not, in the same way you cannot put a dress and wig on a man and call it a woman. A feeling is totally different to the reality. There are so many fantastic examples of inspirational women, and they pick this. Is it to fit in with politically correct agenda.

They are just a mouth piece for the Government and their GRA.

I am glad FairPlay for women was set up, we have to start making our voices heard, and don't give up. They want us to put up and shut up and go back into our little box.

OK so what as an 'inspirational woman' did this chappy do exactly? Serious q as I know nothing about them.

Apart from creepily try to have a dead woman's organs crammed into his own body (and I'm sure the woman didn't give consent for that frankenstein-esqu experiment).

I too have been very clear, and have never contradicted myself. The corrections I am talking about are not your perceptions, but when you persist in ascribing thoughts and motives to people/feminists when you have been told categorically that you are wrong/have misunderstood.

Sorry curious, every GC poster is not of the same opinion (again, not a hive mind) and I haven't memorised everyone's position individually I'm afraid. You might acknowledge the gender of trans people, but many don't even acknowledge gender identity! Or gender presentation, or a whole host of things! And some of the things you've taken issue with me posting on here weren't even aimed at you, but other posters and what they've written about their own positions, or in fact what I know of their positions. So I think you've made this a bit more of a "you and me" debate than it has been in my mind whilst having this conversation.

It would appear there are those on this thread who would not accept intersex people as the sex they identify as. Quite clearly there are. And I've been very surprised to learn that.

I've complained. And I can't see what's inspirational about Lili Elbe anyway. Lili was delusional to the extent that Lili died after experimental cosmetic surgery.

Some people, mostly women, also die as a result of botched cosmetic surgery every year. It's very sad but it doesn't make them - or Lili - inspirational.

As someone on Twitter said, who are we having next week? Ed Gein?

It's a joke - Lili didn't murder anyone. However Ed Gein, a transwoman and necrophile, wore women’s body parts as clothing, including a number of masks made from dead women’s faces.

The masks looked as real as they were, consisting of their victims’ entire faces, including hair, foreheads, eyebrows, eyes (with eyelashes), ears, noses, lips, chins, and jaws.

The only things missing were the eyeballs, which Ed supplied himself when he wore the masks.

Yes on an individual level, I will treat them with respect and refer them to how they want to be known, but on a larger more macrolevel, they cannot change sex. They suddenly have not changed from being XY to XX.

The intersex society of North America describes those with Klinefelter Syndrome as men.

Prawnof and no I don't mean envy.

Oh good God what have I just read?!?!?

Presumably the difference between an XXY woman and an XXY man are the genitals observed at birth.

If people with Klinefelter Syndrome can be both male and female and the difference is in the genitalia they are born with, then surely that suggests that Lili was male because she had to undergo surgery to remove male genitalia. If she had been born with female genitals there would have been no need for that to happen.