...to think that if Comic Relief are going to do a "Woman Wednesday" blog about "inspirational female figures", it should have an inspirational female figure in it?

[ArcheryAnnie]

Comic Relief are doing a new weekly blog, about inspirational women.

"Women Wednesday’s is our new weekly column for Gender Justice month here at Comic Relief, where we will be giving the spotlight to one inspirational female figure per week. We focus on women who have created change and spearheaded movements for other women, and stood up against discrimination against gender and sexuality."

Fantastic, right? They've got links to all kinds of amazing women, working in very challenging conditions across the world, who are helping to create a better world for everyone, not just themselves. What a brilliant blog theme! What brilliant, inspirational woman are we all going to learn about today, I wonder?

Well. Here's who they picked as their "inspirational female figure": www.comicrelief.com/news/women-wednesdays-heres-why-lili-elbe-our-inspirational-figure-week

Women deserve better, Comic Relief. You've really screwed up on this one.

people with Kleinfelter's syndrome are male.

Whoah. So... intersex people don't get to identify their sex or gender either? I mean I'm not bringing intersex into this right now, but... whoah. I sort of assumed you'd think that was as offensive a suggestion as I do!

...

Thats because you conflate biological sex with gender presentation, and see either as a potential insult.

But I do wonder if anyone may not have so quickly posted their outrage on this thread had they known that. My 'outrage' is not for the person but for the organisation, so, being blunt, I couldn't really care about the medical issues of a total stranger who died so many years ago!

That and we it would just make it yet another case of Intersex individual being used to make a trans point. So something else to shout at CR for! Although, from a quick search, it would appear that there is no corroborating evidence for that assertion!

No, it is a chromosome condition affecting males.

Feminists who say they want equality aren't saying they want the first picture from your meme, they're saying they want the second Thank you for repeating my own words back at me. most kind!

No, it is a chromosome condition affecting males. Oh, how erm trans no male no intersexphobix of you??

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee, rabbit hole

No one gets to 'identify' their sex, it's a biological fact. No one can change sex. And intersex people continually ask not to be used as trump cards in this debate, they are still either male or female despite a medical condition.

Political statement (and yes, agree with a pp that it was an aggressive one) by CR: Some women have penises/the word 'woman' means 'anyone who identifies as one'. Presented as a done deal, #nodebate, colours on mast. CR are pro self ID.

Does not remove any of the issues with self ID.

Inevitably does mean CR will now have to deal with the large part of the population who don't agree with this quasi religious, anti science belief and continually point out the damage it does to the female sex while standing up for women and girls' rights. And with the political implications of removing biological identification or no longer recognising that the root of oppression/harm to women is based on their (now hidden under an inclusive doormat) biology, when their work actually deals with many groups experiencing that oppression and harm. And that they're fine that this massive, massive decision to redefine women has been made without consulting women or listening to the large groups of them protesting.

Not a good look CR.

Although, from a quick search, it would appear that there is no corroborating evidence for that assertion!

There's loads of references to reports from the time that observed rudimentary ovaries

Thats because you conflate biological sex with gender presentation

I don't conflate the two, I just don't insist on the rigid binaries that you might.

So are we really saying that this intersex individual who lived "as a woman" should not be eligible to be recognised as an inspirational woman, because she was intersex? Okay, well I really didn't realise you guys felt that way about intersex self-identification. I sort of understood (not agreed, mind you) that you weren't happy with trans people identifying themselves at odds with their body parts based on what was in their brains, but I really didn't think anyone had an issue with intersex self-identifying, what with things being somewhat more complicated in the biology department. That's just basic common sense, surely?

God, this is news to me. You really, really don't think intersex people should be recognised as their self-identified sex? You're not just trying to back-peddle on having trashed Lili for being recognised as a woman? I'm honestly gobsmacked.

But I do wonder if anyone may not have so quickly posted their outrage on this thread had they known that.

If Lili were biologically female then it would be even more like holding Human Barbie up as an inspiration - Woman has lots of surgery to more closely resemble her idea of femininity.

How is this inspirational?

Thank you for repeating my own words back at me. most kind!

You told Perfectly that having equality as a goal was "shit", and akin to wanting everyone to have the same sized box (first picture of your meme). i said wanting equality was wanting the second picture of your meme, so completely the opposite of your words!

I am so glad I don't pay the license fee or have ever contributed to Vomit Relief. What a bunch of misogynists. I feel so sorry for any woman who works for these jokers. They really are just taking the piss now.

You really, really don't think intersex people should be recognised as their self-identified sex?

You're still conflating sex and gender.

People can present as any gender presentation they like, it's as varied as there are people. No one can change sex or self identify a sex. They can identify gender, but sex is an unchangeable biological fact.

You're still conflating sex and gender.

No. I'm not. i know the difference. There is no "sex" for intersex, as there are no gametes, and you lot are always banging on about there only being two kinds of those - hence two distinct sexes! If there is no gamete and there is no "of the sex class who..." - because both body parts are present - there is no sex. So you get to self-identify it, surely??!?

I honestly did not know any gender crit types had these feelings about intersex self-identification. Is this why everyone was at such pains for it not to be "brought into this"?

People with Klinefelter syndrome are biologically male.

People with Klinefelter syndrome are biologically male.

So you really, truly don't think intersex people should be allowed to be considered female if that is how they identify? Because even their having ovaries is not enough to allow that? The Y chromosome means it's a no?

Wow.

i said wanting equality was wanting the second picture of your meme, so completely the opposite of your words! And later you said we agreed and I pointed out that you seem to have said everything to everyone at some point.

Word salad is a good description! Thank you whoever that was!

There's loads of references to reports from the time that observed rudimentary ovaries Show me - root and branch! Lots of references to how many 'reports'. Who made those reports, that kind of thing. All I have found is references to a shady 'removal of all evidence' and a blank statement that "Doctors found..." but no actual prime sources quoted! Both cannot be true and yet the authors of various blogs, book, newspaper pieces, film puff pieces, etc use those phrases all time, completely unreferenced!

There is no "sex" for intersex, as there are no gametes Erm... no! That isn't how that works! The term is, or can be "covariation of gamete phenotypes"

I honestly did not know any gender crit types had these feelings about intersex self-identification. Is this why everyone was at such pains for it not to be "brought into this"? Well, it is more that many groups and individual individual with intersex have asked that they are not dragged not the trans debate! They are not trans and resent being used by anyone in the debate. They are 'intersex' in its many variations.

And I am sure you must have been on other threads discussing that, haven't you?

FFS can people not even Google syndromes before spouting bollocks?

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't speaking out of turn here, but from the Klinefelter's Syndrome association... "Most [XXY people] are male, a few are female and others are neither – or both."

www.ksa-uk.net/home/information-concerning-ks-children/informed-consent/

I really didn't think anyone would be arguing with that.

Sex is a biological fact, chromosomes are verifiable independent facts.

How people want to identify and live is wholly up to them, gender is a wholly separate thing, but no one can identify away a biological fact.

Gender and sex, two different things.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome

Klinefelter syndrome (KS) also known as 47,XXY or XXY, is the set of symptoms that result from two or more X chromosomes in males.

And I am sure you must have been on other threads discussing that, haven't you?

I have never, ever been on a thread discussing intersex. I've never even mentioned it I don't think. I'm only mentioning it now because I didn't realise people were against intersex self-identification, only trans self-identification, because I know the GC brigade are very keen to keep the two separate.

I didn't realise, with the two being kept separate, that the disapproval of self-ID extended to both.

Klinefelter syndrome (KS) also known as 47,XXY or XXY, is the set of symptoms that result from two or more X chromosomes in males.

Uh-huh, well done. Now see what the Klinefelter's Syndrome Association has to say on the matter above.

"In 1959, Patricia Jacobs identified that men who had Klinefelter’s Syndrome had a chromosome pattern, or karyotype, 47,XXY – or often referred to as XXY.

However isn’t quite that simple.

It now known that some men who have the symptoms of Klinefelter’s Syndrome have the 46,XY karyotype ie no extra chromosome.
It has also been documented that a few women are XXY. They couldn’t be described as having KS as the symptoms are irrelevant to them.

So XXY and KS are similar, but not always interchangeable and XXY is not always a ‘male’ thing."