To ask what’s wrong with fur

[Iwannasnack]

Compared to leather? Why is one socially acceptable and one not. Is it all to do with animal cruelty? in which case why is there not a drive to raise standards, like in the meat industry, rather than boycott the product? I’m not trying to be inflammatory just genuinely curious!

Pundora I'm not sure why you'd say 'of course you do'? Must I prove it to you? And I also don't understand your every little helps comment.

Why do people think it's okay to wear vintage fur but not new?

NRTFT but the difference is when a cow is slaughtered everything is used, it is used for human food, animal food, animal chews and leather.
When a mink, for example, is killed to make a fur coat it is just killed and skinned, the rest is then thrown away.

How many people in the UK actually wear real fur though (at least knowingly)?

Loads. I went window shopping on Saturday in a well to do town with a friend. There was fur in lots of the boutiques. Bobbles on hats, wraps, trims on ponchos etc. Absolutely loads of it.

The reality is that there is so much fake fur around now that those who want to wear real fur can get away with it anyway.

The leather industry is (sadly) not tied into the meat industry, for reasons I admit I’m not sure of. The leather we wear does NOT come from the cows we eat.

I see no problem with fur assuming it is humanely hunted. I have a few bits from First Nation hunters in the US and Canada, and some rabbit I shot myself (and which was indeed eaten). Very different to the fur farms in China.

I don't think anything that we eat or wear is truly ethical and without impact. From children working in sweat shops, deforestation for palm oil, permanently pregnant dairy cows, mass scale use of insecticides to grow vegetables, and more. So I think you're example is a little bit like the horse meat scandal. Why is it ok to eat pig but not horses? It's a very interesting question with no straightforward solutions.

Fur animals are not skinned alive. PETA commissioned that video of a raccoon dog being skinned alive - they were tried and found guilty in German high court for causing such deliberate cruelty to animals. When translated, you could hear the workers in the background questioning the person doing the skinning why he was doing that and it wasn’t what they were supposed to do. Unfortunately it did go viral and now everyone believes that’s what happens to fur animals. Animal rights activists are the cause of all that.

Fur animals are treated far, far better than most meat animals - the quality of thier life massively affects the quality of their fur so they need to be treated well. Fur from Europe and America has very strict welfare regulations.

Massive fur user here btw! I think it’s absolutely beautiful and a good way of honouring and preserving animals that are long gone. I only wear and use fur that I know the origins of and agrees with my ethics, the same as the meat and eggs I eat. Guess that makes me a cunt.

Oh, and the bodies of mink are not wasted - they’re used as fertiliser for many crops. Bone meal anyone?

Even vegan meals can be grown in fur farmed carcasses, hence why I never truly believe anything is ever vegan.

I've always thought the same. I think campaigns have done a good job of convincing people that fur is barbaric above leather and meat and I'm not sure that's true. As countless pp have said some meat and leather is also farmed without any regard for animal welfare. There could be campaigns to improve fur farming standards instead of banning it altogether. I suspect the reasons that hasn't happened are more to do with cultural assumptions (e.g. it was easy to portray fur as something only vain rich women need but 'everyone' eats meat so the campaign have never caught on in the same way)
If you're vegan or Janist then of course you won't wear fur. If you only eat the highest standard of free range organic meat/animal products them it makes sense to avoid all fur if you don't feel the industry is regulated well enough.

If you are happy to eat cheap meat, non free range eggs and wear clothes from sweat shops then avoiding fur and criticising everyone who wears it does seem hypocritical to me. (Not saying that's everyone on here, before everyone tells me they're personal choices! but there are people in my social circle who are like this)

*I know we don't NEED to eat meat. But we get nutrition from it and it's a natural thing for humans as omnivores. Yes, the way a lot of it is produced is very poor, mostly due to consumption demand, but there is at least an argument for its existence.

But we absolutely 100% categorically don't need to wear fur. Ever.*

This is such a weird spurious argument to me!

I could easily say: "I know we don't NEED to wear fur. But we are protected from the elements by it and it's a natural thing for humans as creatures without fur ourselves so we need to cover our bodies in something."

How could I tell the difference between faux fur and real fur? I am worrying about the fur on my Pom Pom hat from Primark and the fur around my coat hood from Dorothy Perkins?

If you look at the base of the fur, real fur is on a leather-type material and fake fur is on a normal fabric. Also if you pull a hair out and put a lighter to it, real fur will singe and smell the same as human hair, and fake fur will melt like plastic

an animal skinned alive would also bleed all over the fur even if it didnt savage your hand while you were trying to do it. Its total bullshit.

Also everyone going on about it being dog fur. Obviously theyve encountered far more fluffy dogs than I have.
Most cheap fur is blatantly rabbit.

A lot of anti fur stuff is mostly about how other countries are terrible in every way. They eat DOGS dontcha know. AND they skin them alive. ooooh.

Theres a lot of countries out there with dubious or horrendous animal welfare policies, and even in ones with good policies, its torture for animals.
Its really easy to criticise other cultures while pretending ours is better

I WOULD NEVER EAT FOIS GRAS. I WOULD NEVER KILL A WHALE etc etc.
Great. Well done avoiding something from someone elses culture that you would never do anyway. I hope you enjoy your milky coffee, where the calf was forcibly removed from its mother at birth, and immediately killed if it was a male, while its sister is destined for the same shit life as its mother. Enjoy your bacon sandwich and all that terrified pig endured that is no less intelligent and aware than your young child. Its pretty easy to avoid fur in our moderate climate. Bit more difficult in Siberia

Thank you #pinkyy

I am a big supporter of ETHICAL fur.
By ethical, I mean dual purpose, genuinely free range animals.
Wild deer, rabbit etc, properly free range sheep and cows...

But truly ethical fur is very, very difficult to find.

A previous poster mentioned about most fur animals being well treated, that is utter tripe!

Take mink for example, it is impossible to rear these animals ethically.

First of all they have enormous territories so straight away any enclosure is going to cause stress because it isn’t big enough.

Now you could say well we’ll just free range them like pigs or chickens, provide lots of enrichment and it’s not ideal but it’s okay. They have space, company, activities to prevent boredom.

Except.

Mink are horrendously aggressive and will viciously kill other mink.
Which means that the only way of farming them is to keep them in a tiny cage - cruel and stressful, surrounded by other mink - cruel and stressful.

I have seen footage from Russian fox farms also and it wasn’t pretty.
Small, dirty cages, no enrichment and obvious signs of distress like pacing and bar chewing.

The fur industry is undeniably cruel.

Which is a great shame because the faux fur industry is also undeniably cruel.
Made of plastic with all the environmental concerns that come with that, horrendous human rights abuses and destruction of land and water by the dumping of caustic chemicals.
Faux fur catches fire easily (real fur is very difficult to ignite), it doesn’t insulate well nor wick away moisture like real fur.

I would never wear faux fur.

I do have some free range Spanish Toscana pieces which I wear regularly because they fit my ethical standards.

Unfortunately truly ethical fur is both hard to find and super expensive so people opt for faux which is horrific or fur farmed which is horrific instead

I wish people would stop this myth that leather is a byproduct of the meat industry. Most leathers that sofas and shoes etc are made out of are not made from the left overs of the meat products we eat. There is little difference between buying a real fur coat and a leather sofa in terms of using animals for luxury products / products welfare.

I think ultimately it’s up to people to make the decisions they feel most comfortable with but people do delude themselves by saying leather is okay because it would just be thrown out anyway.

That soft, plush leather sofa someone loves isn’t made out of the leather from a dairy cow that’s at the end of its days or a cow that’s been slaughtered for a joint of roast beef.

Ironically it’s the cheaper leather - that goes on to make shoes in Asda, primark, etc - that is probably a byproduct of the meat industry but then you get into another ethical dilemma about sweatshops and cheap fashion and all that sort of thing. Whatever you do you can’t win really!

Also branleuse most of the fur trim tested on cheap items made in China was GSD dog or cat or rabbit.
Dog fur in China is a definite thing.

Fur animals are treated far, far better than most meat animals - the quality of thier life massively affects the quality of their fur so they need to be treated well. Fur from Europe and America has very strict welfare regulations

Whilst I agree with what you have said about the video. ^this statement is bollocks

news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/08/wildlife-china-fur-farming-welfare/

an animal skinned alive would also bleed all over the fur even if it didnt savage your hand while you were trying to do it. Its total bullshit

well from what I saw from the set up video, there was almost no bloodshed, and it was done with bone chilling speed and accuracy. the film may have been a vile cruel set up. But no one can be that skilled at what he did without years of experience.
begs the question how did he get that good?

I think everyone is entitled to their own take on things. Personally, I don't wear fur, don't eat meat, don't eat dairy, have never taken my kids to the zoo or a circus with animals but I respect other people's rights to have a different opinion to mine.

If you are genuinely curious about welfare standards for fur, leather, meat or dairy, there is a wealth of articles or videos out there.

Fur farms were made illegal in the UK in the early noughties as they were seen to be extremely cruel. Animals are kept in tiny wire cages with mesh floors their entire lives...no room to turn, play, the mesh hurts and damages their paws and they can’t lie comfortably either. They are gassed or anally electrocuted to preserve the pelt. Although farming fur is illegal in this country, importing it for sale is not. This is hypocritical, as farms abroad are often even worse than the UK ones were! Wearing fur is basically saying you are ok with such senseless cruelty.

Is there a reason the animals are skinned whilst still alive?!

They arent. There was a video commisioned by PETA. And they say "on occasion the animal may still be alive".

Thats a bit different to them routinely skinning animals alive because of some interest in torture or it being more efficient.

Same as with chicken slaughter when they hang them upside down over an ellectrically charged bath of water. There are occasions a chicken has its throat sliced without first being drowned/electrocuted in the electric bath if it moves its head, but thats different to them routinely slicing their heads off without anaesthetic

Most of our cheap leather comes from India. A country where there is not a significant meat market for beef. Also, most leather goods are taken from animals not used for their meat (though they could be part of a wider byproduct of a meat/ dairy industry).

In terms of fur, it depends on the animal and the how it has been looked after/ killed. Rabbit fur, for example is often taken from animals that are also eaten. Mink on the other hand...

I think it's about making smarter ethical choices rather than saying one is okay and one is not. Obviously veganism is an option too!

I think a lot of the recent furore is because of mislabeling. If an item is mislabeled then it is takes away that choice from the consumer. It also raises other concerns about the supply chain. Are the goods made in sweat shops for example?

Good points @Fairylea

@fleabagmonkey

Some good tips here!

www.today.com/money/how-tell-difference-between-faux-fur-real-thing-1D80377961

To be honest a burn test is probably the most effective, but shops get annoyed at you doing that!

they still have fur farming in Ireland btw. Mink farms I think mainly. They are kept in small cages then gassed and skinned.

Treasure114 this was my answer to the same question asked yesterday.

DaedricLordSlayer

Branleuse well if the video was anything to go by, its in quite poor countries, so why have the expense of gas and waste time gassing, if you are skilled enough to be able to whip of a pelt seconds? (i think were it was filmed are well known for there lack of compassion for animals too)

and as I wrote above it was very quick and and accurate. no matter how set up it was, it is a skill, the animal was alive and moving around on all four paws, if they were use to skinning a dead animal they wouldn't have been able to do what was on video.

I don't think they have an interest in torture, they just don't see animals the same as we do.