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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Stonewall should be taking a stand on this?

116 replies

WeAreNotGoingBack · 13/11/2018 21:41

I’m a lesbian who grew up and then came out in the 80s/90s. Growing up there were hardly any positive images of lesbians and it really wasn’t something I wanted to be (the thought terrified me). I remember reading when I was about 12/13 years old that crushes on girls were sometimes “a phase” that teenagers went through and I really prayed that that would be the case with me but reassured myself that, even if it wasn’t, I could still just carry on, get married (to a man) and lead a normal life and no one need ever know.

When I got to university there was a lesbian and gay society and I met others in the same boat. It was quite common that these young men and women had tried dating the opposite sex. I remember one young woman telling me that she had been dating a boy and that they both came out as gay to each other. They thought their relationship worked well because they got on and neither of them really liked sex very much (which on reflection was because they were both with the wrong sex!).

I soon learnt that you got targeted by men for being a lesbian, men who wanted to ‘convert’ you and believed they could ‘show you what you were missing’. Some lesbians get subjected to far worse. In some places this can include ‘corrective rape’ which it was believed would make lesbians straight.

Repeatedly, I encountered the view that it was ‘perverted’, morally inferior to heterosexuality and that it was just about sex (whereas no straight woman who talked about her husband or walked down the street holding hands with her boyfriend would be told that she was throwing her sex life in people’s faces).

Later, I attended groups where I met newly-out women in their 30s and 40s – Women from the previous generation where the pressures to be heterosexual were even stronger and they had felt the need to get married and live within a man for many, many years before coming to terms with their sexuality.

I also met (a few) people who had undergone conversion therapy and one who had been exorcised due to her sexuality – This was a lot rarer than it had been for the previous generation but still went on occasionally.

And that’s what makes me so angry about what is going on now. We have seen this all before, many of us have experienced attempts to change our sexual orientation – either by others or by ourselves due to internalised homophobia. It seemed to be getting better (at least in the UK) and now it’s all coming back.

For those who don’t know the background to this, male people with penises are identifying as being lesbians and lesbians are being told we are bigoted and need to be re-educated if we don’t want to have sex with people with penises. A movement has built up around smashing the “cotton ceiling” (the cotton ceiling representing lesbians’ underwear which the people-with-penises want to break through) [1]

And all the same stuff is coming up again:

  • We’re morally inferior, perverted and our relationships are only about sex - “bigots” and “vagina fetishists” [2]

  • That it’s a “preference” not a sexual “orientation” which we can and should be re-educated to overcome [3]

I was already aware of workshops taking place for people-with-penises on how to break through the cotton ceiling (which again sounds like stuff I remember appearing in lads’ mags in the 1990s on how to bed a lesbian). [4]

Now I hear that students in UK universities in 2018 are being taught that there is “too much emphasis on sexual autonomy” and that sometimes the rights of a person with a (self-identified) marginalised identity (ie a person-with-a-penis who identifies as being a lesbian) to have sex with a lesbian should outweigh the rights of a (female) lesbian to refuse all sexual contact with people-with-penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416075-Shocked-by-sexual-offences-lecture-sex-by-deception-and-bigoted-women

(The academic person-with-a-penis espousing this view is from Keele University – although I believe this lecture took place elsewhere with the lecturer just teaching those views).

And there are other people-with-penises in prominent positions advocating similarly, for example, Dr Rachel McKinnon (the same person who won the women’s cycling race amidst some controversy) lectures on the topic of the “cotton ceiling” and argues that lesbians can learn to “cope” with penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3411070-Rachael-McKinnon-another-gem-from-the-you-couldnt-make-it-up-guidebook#prettyPhoto

Meanwhile, parts of the lesbian media (which is primarily run by non-lesbians) are ‘educating’ lesbians on how to have lesbian sex with someone with a penis:

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

If this kind of stuff was coming from evangelical Christians or right-wing politicians Stonewall would be loudly condemning it. So why are they silent on this? AIBU to think they should take a stand?

[1] tgforum.com/wordpress/the-cotton-ceiling/
[2] www.afterellen.com/general-news/553883-despite-cyber-bullying-erasure-young-lesbians-claiming-l-word

“Recently, novelist and LGBT advocate Nora Calder came under fire for asserting that as a lesbian woman she experienced same-sex attraction. One could be forgiven for hoping that in 2018, attitudes might have shifted to the point that such a statement would not be met with backlash. Yet Calder was criticized for disclosing the nature of her sexual orientation, sent a litany of Tweets which accused her of being a “vaginophile”, “vagina fetishist”, “disgusting”, “transmisogynist”, and a “penis demonizer”. In the rush to condemn Calder’s sexuality as bigoted, quite a few people forgot to check their lesbophobia at the door.”
[3] Are Genital Preferences Transphobic?

[4] terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/#jp-carousel-321
OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/12/2018 09:19

I am [shocked] that the National Lottery thinks that is an appropriate thing to fund - do they do any due diligence at all?!

Queenofthedrivensnow · 23/12/2018 10:26

Just signing in to show support. Stonewall are advocating decriminalising sexual assault against women - pretty much!

CloserIAm2Fine · 23/12/2018 10:57

You can refuse to have sex with anyone for any reason. Unless you’re a lesbian refusing to have sex with a man apparently Confused

Unfortunately the stand that Stonewall are taking is against lesbians.

WeAreNotGoingBack · 31/03/2019 22:38

Findings of a survey out today on lesbians' experiences of sexual coercion within the LGBT community:

www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

And a small sample of the many online posts spreading this message:

twitter.com/OVAndOut/status/1112150403238395905

OP posts:
Lifeover · 31/03/2019 23:04

Although I’m straight I’m horrified about this! Who the fuck thinks they have a right to tell anyone who they should have sex with, in any other arena it would be coercive rape.

Break through the the cotton ceiling??? If stonewall are using this language they need to be outlawed, it isthe language of encouraging rape!

Nearlythere1 · 31/03/2019 23:17

Op I could not agree with you more. Stonewall has its priorities all wrong and the new trends in sexuality are highly regressive.

BreconBeBuggered · 31/03/2019 23:18

Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places, but I find it quite striking that there seems to be no great movement to get straight men to 'cope' with a lady penis as a matter of social duty. I'm romantic enough at heart to think that people who love one another can learn to overcome obstacles, and if having an unexpected set of genitalia is one of those, good luck to the couple who can work through it, genuinely. But to expect a partner of a more casual or transient nature to put up with things they're not into to service someone else's gender identity? No.

Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis · 31/03/2019 23:34

ludicrous! I’m so sorry for young lesbians, university was where so many finally found a place and understanding....it sounds like a nightmare now.

WeWantJustice · 02/04/2019 12:35

I find it incredibly depressing that women on this thread are telling other women that the coercion they are experiencing from males, doesn't exist because they haven't experienced it (yet). Honestly women, it's exactly like saying that because you personally have never been raped or sexually assaulted, those things aren't a big problems, or that because you've not experienced sexual harassment, women are exaggerating the extent of the problem. Unless you are very young indeed it is really shameful to adopt that attitude to other women when they are telling you what men are in the habit of doing to women.

MrsSnippyPants · 02/04/2019 20:07

This ^

MaryContrary1995 · 02/04/2019 20:18

Totally agree with everything you say OP. I'm not a lesbian and don't know many so I wasn't really aware of these issues until recently. Horrified at what lesbians are going through atm.

YouveGotAxes · 02/04/2019 20:19

I’ve read about this online and on Twitter and I’m just appalled. The other really sad thing I came across the other night was a thread on Twitter by a lesbian asking where all the ‘butch dykes’ had gone. She had altered the age range on her dating app out of curiosity and couldn’t find anyone in that category below about 30 - they were all identifying as ‘transmen’.

I’m comparatively new to the trans debate, but one of the first things which occurred to me was how the language is very like that used by the green frog men on the far right (which I have seen a lot of in the course of pro-EU campaigning). Even - putting my tinfoil hat on - I have to wonder if Stonewall has been nobbled from the inside by bodies determined to destroy gay rights, coming under the guise of being ‘woke’ and progressive. It seems to me that being associated with the T could seriously implode for the LG&B (and that’s before I even start on getting the fury on just as a woman...).

MaryContrary1995 · 02/04/2019 20:21

And for those lesbians saying they're not getting abuse from TRA's, well I'm glad for you but please stop casting doubt when others say the opposite. There's evidence all over Twitter of the abuse for a start.

AnyOldPrion · 02/04/2019 21:57

My daughter recently came out to me. On the one hand, I’m pleased she felt completely able to do so. She hasn’t, so far, been involved in any TGB(L) groups, but frankly I am worried about her going to university next year.

She’s a butch lesbian. She’s also GC. I’m not worried anyone will convince her she’s male because she’s too level headed and grounded in reality. But I’m worried about how she will be received.

claragolightly · 03/04/2019 09:55

It makes me sick and so angry. What happened to consent?

Lamaha · 03/04/2019 12:27

Anyone who thinks people are exaggerating the 'cotton ceiling' rhetoric, needs to follow twitter.com/xxposinglesphob on Twitter. She documents everything she sees. There is so much vile prejudice against lesbians.

That Twitter account has been suspended!
Voices speaking out against this disgusting practice are being silenced... I am heterosexual but haven't been sexually active for many years and probably will be happily celibate for the rest of my life. I absolutely support all lesbians who are being abused with bs like this. And I am desperately sorry for young would-be lesbians being groomed by transideology. I cannot believe this is happening, and happening so quickly... just a year ago I had no inkling that TRA was so aggressive and influential -- now it's all over the place and you can't avoid it. It's really scary.
This would be legal rape.

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