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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Stonewall should be taking a stand on this?

116 replies

WeAreNotGoingBack · 13/11/2018 21:41

I’m a lesbian who grew up and then came out in the 80s/90s. Growing up there were hardly any positive images of lesbians and it really wasn’t something I wanted to be (the thought terrified me). I remember reading when I was about 12/13 years old that crushes on girls were sometimes “a phase” that teenagers went through and I really prayed that that would be the case with me but reassured myself that, even if it wasn’t, I could still just carry on, get married (to a man) and lead a normal life and no one need ever know.

When I got to university there was a lesbian and gay society and I met others in the same boat. It was quite common that these young men and women had tried dating the opposite sex. I remember one young woman telling me that she had been dating a boy and that they both came out as gay to each other. They thought their relationship worked well because they got on and neither of them really liked sex very much (which on reflection was because they were both with the wrong sex!).

I soon learnt that you got targeted by men for being a lesbian, men who wanted to ‘convert’ you and believed they could ‘show you what you were missing’. Some lesbians get subjected to far worse. In some places this can include ‘corrective rape’ which it was believed would make lesbians straight.

Repeatedly, I encountered the view that it was ‘perverted’, morally inferior to heterosexuality and that it was just about sex (whereas no straight woman who talked about her husband or walked down the street holding hands with her boyfriend would be told that she was throwing her sex life in people’s faces).

Later, I attended groups where I met newly-out women in their 30s and 40s – Women from the previous generation where the pressures to be heterosexual were even stronger and they had felt the need to get married and live within a man for many, many years before coming to terms with their sexuality.

I also met (a few) people who had undergone conversion therapy and one who had been exorcised due to her sexuality – This was a lot rarer than it had been for the previous generation but still went on occasionally.

And that’s what makes me so angry about what is going on now. We have seen this all before, many of us have experienced attempts to change our sexual orientation – either by others or by ourselves due to internalised homophobia. It seemed to be getting better (at least in the UK) and now it’s all coming back.

For those who don’t know the background to this, male people with penises are identifying as being lesbians and lesbians are being told we are bigoted and need to be re-educated if we don’t want to have sex with people with penises. A movement has built up around smashing the “cotton ceiling” (the cotton ceiling representing lesbians’ underwear which the people-with-penises want to break through) [1]

And all the same stuff is coming up again:

  • We’re morally inferior, perverted and our relationships are only about sex - “bigots” and “vagina fetishists” [2]

  • That it’s a “preference” not a sexual “orientation” which we can and should be re-educated to overcome [3]

I was already aware of workshops taking place for people-with-penises on how to break through the cotton ceiling (which again sounds like stuff I remember appearing in lads’ mags in the 1990s on how to bed a lesbian). [4]

Now I hear that students in UK universities in 2018 are being taught that there is “too much emphasis on sexual autonomy” and that sometimes the rights of a person with a (self-identified) marginalised identity (ie a person-with-a-penis who identifies as being a lesbian) to have sex with a lesbian should outweigh the rights of a (female) lesbian to refuse all sexual contact with people-with-penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416075-Shocked-by-sexual-offences-lecture-sex-by-deception-and-bigoted-women

(The academic person-with-a-penis espousing this view is from Keele University – although I believe this lecture took place elsewhere with the lecturer just teaching those views).

And there are other people-with-penises in prominent positions advocating similarly, for example, Dr Rachel McKinnon (the same person who won the women’s cycling race amidst some controversy) lectures on the topic of the “cotton ceiling” and argues that lesbians can learn to “cope” with penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3411070-Rachael-McKinnon-another-gem-from-the-you-couldnt-make-it-up-guidebook#prettyPhoto

Meanwhile, parts of the lesbian media (which is primarily run by non-lesbians) are ‘educating’ lesbians on how to have lesbian sex with someone with a penis:

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

If this kind of stuff was coming from evangelical Christians or right-wing politicians Stonewall would be loudly condemning it. So why are they silent on this? AIBU to think they should take a stand?

[1] tgforum.com/wordpress/the-cotton-ceiling/
[2] www.afterellen.com/general-news/553883-despite-cyber-bullying-erasure-young-lesbians-claiming-l-word

“Recently, novelist and LGBT advocate Nora Calder came under fire for asserting that as a lesbian woman she experienced same-sex attraction. One could be forgiven for hoping that in 2018, attitudes might have shifted to the point that such a statement would not be met with backlash. Yet Calder was criticized for disclosing the nature of her sexual orientation, sent a litany of Tweets which accused her of being a “vaginophile”, “vagina fetishist”, “disgusting”, “transmisogynist”, and a “penis demonizer”. In the rush to condemn Calder’s sexuality as bigoted, quite a few people forgot to check their lesbophobia at the door.”
[3] Are Genital Preferences Transphobic?

[4] terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/#jp-carousel-321
OP posts:
TrashyTerf · 14/11/2018 00:19

I agree 100% op.

It is clear that gay men are being allowed to reject trans men, but lesbians are expected to accept trans women. Blatant misogyny.

TheMatriarch · 14/11/2018 00:23

I read recently about a Young lesbian asking online how to access conversion therapy to help her enjoy her partners penis better.
TBH this is only one of many things I've heard, there's no shortage of examples.
YANBU at all.

Bebopaloola · 14/11/2018 00:47

It's appalling. If a lesbian loves penises then I suggest they are not lesbian

selfconfesseduggaddict · 14/11/2018 01:05

Not a lesbian... but I know my real life experience as a heterosexual woman hasn't really been to see much support for lesbian women in comparison to huge amounts for trans people and some support for gay men. I very much feel lesbians are ignored in comparison

I wonder sometimes if it's because the public stereotype of lesbian is "butch" and therefore they are seen as less needing of protection than effeminate gay men but this is just my insomniac rambling

ContentiousOne · 14/11/2018 02:55

Agreed with you, OP, as the proud mum of a lesbian dd.

BunsOfAnarchy · 14/11/2018 03:16

Totally with you OP.

I cant quite wrap my head around lesbians being called vaginophiles for now wanting sex with with trans females with a penis.

Im straight. This is insane. If you're not turned on by penis, why should you be vilified?

I read recently about a Young lesbian asking online how to access conversion therapy to help her enjoy her partners penis better.

This has broken my heart. Why is nothing being done about this?! Lesbian women need just as muxh support as gay men. But Its just not happening. I can't understand why.

BunsOfAnarchy · 14/11/2018 03:17

Not** not now

SmashedPatsy · 14/11/2018 03:36

From my, admittedly limited, research the 'cotton ceiling' appears controversial even amongst TRAs. Isn't this all very fringe?

Shriek · 14/11/2018 03:38

Right...so have ingot this right..

These non-female penibarw trying to legalise rape, because that's what this sounds like.

The cotton ceiling, how appalling!!! I don't care what sex or sexual preference, but not predating, forcing, correcting!?

That's all abuse.

So, just as we get more common knowledge of abuse and the horrific figures that never change on the weekly deaths of women, all this comes to try to turn the tables.

I hope those that were pursued or coerced contacted police?

It's rape.

All power to you OP, another non-lesbian here, but think all should stand together against this. Truly horrific.

Shriek · 14/11/2018 03:39

*Non-female penis are

Shriek · 14/11/2018 03:40

I don't think stonewall care BTW
I really haven't got the impression that they are about anything other than pushing the idea that a woman can have a penis.

IdaBWells · 14/11/2018 04:34

It’s just basically a new ideology where you MUST repeat exactly what they say word for word or you are demonized as “transphobic”

Therefore a man with a penis who claims to be a woman:
reality = transwoman
trans ideology = woman

Man with penis who claims to be a woman and wants to have sex with women:
reality = heterosexual
trans ideology = lesbian

You are no longer allowed to talk about SEXual attraction any longer because they deny sex in favour of gender. Stonewall is dominated by men who are sexually frustrated and so are making that women’s problem. They never show any interest in ACTUAL women and of course that includes lesbians.

Useasinnertofind · 14/11/2018 04:42

I don't think Stonewall care and they prioritise the T above all else.

I do find quite a bit of 'evidence' of TRAs pushing agendas tends to be the online posting of inconsequential weirdos though and possibly just representative of that very strange individual.

Unacceptable · 14/11/2018 04:58

Men rule the world.
Straight men.
Gay men.
TranswoMen.
All more powerful than women.

My gay nephew has a best friend.
The two of them have known they were gay and have been openly so since their early teenage years.
She's now decided that she needs to begin the ftm journey. She's no longer a gay woman because her life will be easier if she becomes a transman.
Her life, accepted by her friends and family throughout her turbulent teenage years, is now as an early twenties lesbian making her feel that life will be easier???
Nephew is incredibly feminine, has no desire to go on the trans path.
According to him many of the young women in his social circle feel 'awful now about being lesbians' (his way of saying it) and why not 'simply change gender, it's easier and everyone is doing it'.
His older brother made a flippant remark.
I actually think he made a pretty valid, cultural observation.
"Trans is the new emo, it's what all the stressed, confused kids do now"

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 14/11/2018 06:58

YADNBU. Stonewall should be ashamed of themselves. I'm straight but it was the Cotton Ceiling that first got me involved in this great steaming mess.

It's no use handmaidens trying to insist that it's not happening when the statement "lesbians are female homosexuals" is labelled transphobic at Pride London.

SuburbanRhonda · 14/11/2018 07:04

I haven't come any trans women pressuring lesbians for sex in RL, I've only read about it on here and what I gathered from the L out Pride Protests.

Is this happening to you in RL OP?

Are you saying that because you don’t have personal experience of this, the OP must be making it up?

ForalltheSaints · 14/11/2018 07:45

I wonder if Stonewall has been more about gay men campaigns because historically there has been more persecution of gay men than lesbians? For example, lesbianism was never illegal in the UK, and no-one really cares about lesbians in sport but there are almost no out gay men in sport.

I agree with the OP that Stonewall should care and campaign on the issue she raises.

Sowhatifidosnore · 14/11/2018 08:03

I’m a gay woman, living in a very diverse city with a huge LGBT population. I know a LOT of lesbians, gay men and some trans men and women. I had NEVER heard of the ‘cotton ceiling’ outside of Mumsnet. I have NEVER heard of a lesbian that we know or in our wider circle being pressured or co-erced into having sex with a trans woman, or called transphobic for it not wanting to. The people I know, gay men and lesbians, who are in a relationship with a trans person appear to have made that choice happily ( though I don’t ask what’s in someone’s underpants so can’t confirm or deny a lesbian is having sex involving a penis or a gay man having sex involving a vagina).
On Mumsnet though people are getting worked up about something that isn’t happening in RL, no matter what activists on either side ‘debate’ on Reddit.
So I deffo think it’s a fringe issue or a complete non issue actually.

Sowhatifidosnore · 14/11/2018 08:06

The erasure of the word ‘lesbian’ is a different issue and yes, does seem to happening more and more unfortunately. It being ‘lesbian’ in my experience has always been less accepted and less ‘cool’ than being a gay man. I have meet, known, worked with many straight women over the years who loved gay men or wanted a gay man ‘bestie’ who were absolutely homophobic in their attitude to gay women.

Jezebelz · 14/11/2018 08:13

Exactly what Sowhatifidosnore said.

However it's amazing to have so many straight women speak up in defence of lesbians, something we don't get often so thank you.

If you want to know an issue that is really affecting us it's this:

Currently the law allows straight couples with male fertility issues to have fertility treatment (IUI or IVF) on the NHS.

Straight, single women with no fertility issues are also eligible for IUI or IVF on the NHS.

Lesbian couples are NOT eligible for any fertility treatment on the NHS.

If you want to be outraged at something, this is affecting all of us and would be a great start. The cotton ceiling bollocks is only here on MN.

FekkoThePenguin · 14/11/2018 08:15

I've heard of it first hand - so just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it a lie of a 'mumsnet myth'.

VenusInSpurs · 14/11/2018 08:20

OMG, where did the ‘cotton ceiling’ phrase come from! Especially in the context of ‘smashing through ‘? That is a truly horrible concept: violent and rapey.

OP: you are not wrong. I am a straight woman with a friend who is a TransMan. I just know that I could not have sex with a TransMan, and it is neither Transphobia or Homophobia; it is observing my own feelings, identity and sexual orientation. I.e the same freedoms that Trans people and all people have a right to.

Trying to force any kind of ideaology or ‘ought ‘ on to his people engage in sex and relationships is akin to arranged marriages, or banning inter-racial sex, etc.

The GRA consultation is one thing. Bullying over sexual preference another.

Stonewall: do your fucking job!

SovietKitsch · 14/11/2018 08:22

Fucking hell Jezebelz is that right? How can that be right?! It’s blatant discrimination by reason of sexual orientation!

VenusInSpurs · 14/11/2018 08:24

Jezebelz thank you for drawing attention to that discrimination against lesbian couples in fertility treatment. I did not know that.

Jezebelz · 14/11/2018 08:29

Yep I'm afraid it's true.

If you have a male partner you get help, a female partner then nothing.