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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Stonewall should be taking a stand on this?

116 replies

WeAreNotGoingBack · 13/11/2018 21:41

I’m a lesbian who grew up and then came out in the 80s/90s. Growing up there were hardly any positive images of lesbians and it really wasn’t something I wanted to be (the thought terrified me). I remember reading when I was about 12/13 years old that crushes on girls were sometimes “a phase” that teenagers went through and I really prayed that that would be the case with me but reassured myself that, even if it wasn’t, I could still just carry on, get married (to a man) and lead a normal life and no one need ever know.

When I got to university there was a lesbian and gay society and I met others in the same boat. It was quite common that these young men and women had tried dating the opposite sex. I remember one young woman telling me that she had been dating a boy and that they both came out as gay to each other. They thought their relationship worked well because they got on and neither of them really liked sex very much (which on reflection was because they were both with the wrong sex!).

I soon learnt that you got targeted by men for being a lesbian, men who wanted to ‘convert’ you and believed they could ‘show you what you were missing’. Some lesbians get subjected to far worse. In some places this can include ‘corrective rape’ which it was believed would make lesbians straight.

Repeatedly, I encountered the view that it was ‘perverted’, morally inferior to heterosexuality and that it was just about sex (whereas no straight woman who talked about her husband or walked down the street holding hands with her boyfriend would be told that she was throwing her sex life in people’s faces).

Later, I attended groups where I met newly-out women in their 30s and 40s – Women from the previous generation where the pressures to be heterosexual were even stronger and they had felt the need to get married and live within a man for many, many years before coming to terms with their sexuality.

I also met (a few) people who had undergone conversion therapy and one who had been exorcised due to her sexuality – This was a lot rarer than it had been for the previous generation but still went on occasionally.

And that’s what makes me so angry about what is going on now. We have seen this all before, many of us have experienced attempts to change our sexual orientation – either by others or by ourselves due to internalised homophobia. It seemed to be getting better (at least in the UK) and now it’s all coming back.

For those who don’t know the background to this, male people with penises are identifying as being lesbians and lesbians are being told we are bigoted and need to be re-educated if we don’t want to have sex with people with penises. A movement has built up around smashing the “cotton ceiling” (the cotton ceiling representing lesbians’ underwear which the people-with-penises want to break through) [1]

And all the same stuff is coming up again:

  • We’re morally inferior, perverted and our relationships are only about sex - “bigots” and “vagina fetishists” [2]

  • That it’s a “preference” not a sexual “orientation” which we can and should be re-educated to overcome [3]

I was already aware of workshops taking place for people-with-penises on how to break through the cotton ceiling (which again sounds like stuff I remember appearing in lads’ mags in the 1990s on how to bed a lesbian). [4]

Now I hear that students in UK universities in 2018 are being taught that there is “too much emphasis on sexual autonomy” and that sometimes the rights of a person with a (self-identified) marginalised identity (ie a person-with-a-penis who identifies as being a lesbian) to have sex with a lesbian should outweigh the rights of a (female) lesbian to refuse all sexual contact with people-with-penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416075-Shocked-by-sexual-offences-lecture-sex-by-deception-and-bigoted-women

(The academic person-with-a-penis espousing this view is from Keele University – although I believe this lecture took place elsewhere with the lecturer just teaching those views).

And there are other people-with-penises in prominent positions advocating similarly, for example, Dr Rachel McKinnon (the same person who won the women’s cycling race amidst some controversy) lectures on the topic of the “cotton ceiling” and argues that lesbians can learn to “cope” with penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3411070-Rachael-McKinnon-another-gem-from-the-you-couldnt-make-it-up-guidebook#prettyPhoto

Meanwhile, parts of the lesbian media (which is primarily run by non-lesbians) are ‘educating’ lesbians on how to have lesbian sex with someone with a penis:

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

If this kind of stuff was coming from evangelical Christians or right-wing politicians Stonewall would be loudly condemning it. So why are they silent on this? AIBU to think they should take a stand?

[1] tgforum.com/wordpress/the-cotton-ceiling/
[2] www.afterellen.com/general-news/553883-despite-cyber-bullying-erasure-young-lesbians-claiming-l-word

“Recently, novelist and LGBT advocate Nora Calder came under fire for asserting that as a lesbian woman she experienced same-sex attraction. One could be forgiven for hoping that in 2018, attitudes might have shifted to the point that such a statement would not be met with backlash. Yet Calder was criticized for disclosing the nature of her sexual orientation, sent a litany of Tweets which accused her of being a “vaginophile”, “vagina fetishist”, “disgusting”, “transmisogynist”, and a “penis demonizer”. In the rush to condemn Calder’s sexuality as bigoted, quite a few people forgot to check their lesbophobia at the door.”
[3] Are Genital Preferences Transphobic?

[4] terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/#jp-carousel-321
OP posts:
WellThisIsShit · 14/11/2018 08:36

I’m not a lesbian but I stand with you and any lesbians who are effected by this attitude.

I really hope it is a niche / fringe thing to be happening, because it’s just too awful and horrifying in its woman-hating, insidious nature.

The ivf inequality needs to be stopped also. Ffs.

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 14/11/2018 08:39

Jez My CCG's old guidelines stated that same sex couples are eligible when there is evidence of sub fertility - I presumed that means if you've tried AI (is that the right acronym?) and it's failed then they'll do IVF. Is that not what it means?

I didn't quite understand it when I read it, but then they stopped funding treatment for anyone.

Jezebelz · 14/11/2018 08:53

Lysistrataknowsherstuff lesbian couples have to try self funded IUI 6 times (approx £2k per try) at a private clinic before being eligible for NHS treatment.

Straight couples have to have unprotected sex for 18 months...

Blanketbox · 14/11/2018 08:56

It’s not true that lesbian women are discriminated against re IVF. Whoever you are, you have to demonstrate evidence of sub fertility. So for straight couples it’s regular unprotected sex. For single women or lesbians it’s 12 goes at artificial insemination with no success.

Blanketbox · 14/11/2018 08:58

jez it doesn’t have to be IUI, it can be the good old fashioned turkey baster, which is free if you can persuade someone to give you the sperm

RaininSummer · 14/11/2018 09:01

Thank you for laying it out so clearly OP. This is outside of my personal experience but I support you in what you say. Stonewall are a disgrace.

NewLevelsOfTiredness · 14/11/2018 09:21

There's something a bit 'incel' about this...

So it's (apparently) wrong for lesbians not to want to sleep with penis owners that identify as women, but there's no such movement against straight men who wouldn't want to either?

Sorry, penis owner here and it feels like lesbians are just targeted in this because they're the easier target?

But it really feel like '/incel' attitude. To have two groups of people who should (under this absurd logic) be ok about sleeping with transwomen with penises but then to only attack the female camp feel very much in the red pill/incel women-hating ideology.

You know.. the ones who think women are whores for not wanting to give them sex in return for holding a door open for them and tipping their hat and all that. I genuinely can see men from that camp claiming to id as women and then giving abuse when it doesn't 'entitle' them to sex. Consent is a strange, confusing beast in their world Hmm

ShineOnHarvestMoon · 14/11/2018 09:28

YANBU. Defibitely not. I'm so sorry for what is being thrown at you. I am a (straight) feminist from the 1970s and I thought things were better now than they were then for lesbians.

Don't know what to say really - I feel we've failed your generation I'm sorry Flowers

beyondthesky · 14/11/2018 09:41

I know two lesbian couples, both paid privately for IVF and went on to have babies but I didn't realise they had no choice other than to pay.

If I was a lesbian wanting IVF I think I'd be inclined to lie about my relationship and take along a willing male friend and say we had been trying for 18 months.

Sowhatifidosnore · 14/11/2018 09:50

It’s not true that lesbians need to pay for IVF where straight couples don’t. They get the same access to services, but those services are being cut for everyone because of costs.

Jezebelz · 14/11/2018 09:57

Blanketbox yes true. When I went to my GP to enquire about options she said 'can't you just ask a male friend to impregnable you?'

Can you imagine a doctor saying to a married,straight woman 'can't you ask a male friend to impregnate you?'

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 14/11/2018 10:06

I think it is utterly abhorrent that lesbians are being pressured to have PIV sex, and that Stonewall are not speaking out in support of the lesbian women. I am not lesbian, but I support 100% their right to choose who they have sex with, free from judgement and pressure.

It is yet another example of how the rights, needs and safety of biological women are being erased to make room for trans women. Angry

TanteRose · 14/11/2018 10:07

Absolutely insane Angry
I’m not a lesbian but I agree with you OP

JellyBaby666 · 14/11/2018 11:44

Am I accidentally being cissexist for being in a relationship with a man who was born male and has a penis? And is he being cissexist for being in a relationship with me, a woman who was born female and doesn't have a penis?

Of course not. Because if you take the ideology to the extreme it falls apart!

This really makes my blood boil. This video made a lot of sense.

A580Hojas · 14/11/2018 15:11

Stonewall has become a dirty word to me over their whole position on the GRA. A straight male friend commented that they have "lost the plot" when I mentioned my feelings in a Facebook post. Most people with half a brain agree with you op.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 14/11/2018 19:07

Stonewall has become a dirty word to me over their whole position on the GRA.

This. I used to donate & volunteer. Now they're the oppressive homophobes they used to fight against.

FekkoThePenguin · 14/11/2018 19:12

How often do heroes sell out and lose the plot?

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 14/11/2018 19:15

After winning gay marriage they needed a reason to keep going & stay funded. So Ruth Hunt apologised to the TRAs for not letting them in sooner & decided her lesbian sisters could go fuck themselves.

FekkoThePenguin · 14/11/2018 19:54

But... When a man says he is a woman and a lesbian what the he'll does that even mean? It's a man who has sex with a woman. I assume a penis is involved in these somewhere. And that's man bits not a woman bits. How is that LGB? It's not. It's something else surely.

Goes to freezer for more ice for head.

TorsJ · 14/11/2018 19:59

It’s so disappointing that Stonewall is not standing up for lesbians I remember being told that all I needed was the right ‘dick’ when I first came out. Even friends who should have known better asked if I’d ever ‘tried it’ with a man. I was really never believed that anyone would pressure lesbians in this day and age to ‘try dick’ then I discovered the Riley Denis YouTube videos and I was horrified I thought this was just a one off but it’s all over the place loads of the gay Facebook groups I belonged to were spewing the same rhetoric to the point where I had to leave them all because I felt uncomfortable. Even the LGBT, I was finding all the events aimed at lesbians (of which there are precious few) all had the disclaimer that it was for anyone who identifies as a lesbian / bisexual woman all or part of the time?!? I noted these disclaimers were less prominent on other events not aimed at women.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 14/11/2018 20:47

@FekkoThePenguin - when a person who is a trans woman who has not had their penis surgically removed, the penis is a lady penis, dontcha know - a female organ, not a male one.

And lesbians just need to learn to be less focussed on genitalia, and must let these trans woman lesbians have sex with them, using their lady penis - apparently plenty of lesbians can learn to cope with penis!

Utterly sickening, and a total betrayal of women.

FekkoThePenguin · 14/11/2018 20:54

What do they slap a bit of lippy on it?

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 14/11/2018 20:55

Yup - and pink high heels. Or maybe a sparkly condom....

trixymalixy · 14/11/2018 21:18

A gold lame condom surely!!

WeAreNotGoingBack · 15/11/2018 09:26

Thanks for the responses, which I’m picking up a bit late as it’s turning into a hectic week for me.

I think the younger lesbians have it a lot worse than us older lesbians do (both in terms of encountering it more because of the circles they are in and also being less confident in defending their sexuality than we are because they’ve never had the supportive groups we’ve experienced). In terms of stuff I’ve personally encountered from male people who identify as lesbians it has mainly been just creepy behaviour (e.g. unwanted touching). In my personal experience, it has disproportionately (but not exclusively) been from those who only identify as a woman part of the time (ie the cross dressers, who are now classed as trans) but that may not be everyone’s experience. In my age group I think we are all aware that they are male and don’t feel obliged to be open to sex with them in a way younger lesbians could but don’t feel able to state the obvious (either because we should be ‘nice’ or because we know it would be risky to do so and we have to make some other excuse).

However, the most openly anti-lesbian stuff that I’ve personally encountered (ie openly advocating for the arguments in my original post), has actually come from female people (usually identifying as ‘non-binary’ or ‘queer’ or ‘genderqueer’ or some other trans-related variation, sometimes ''pansexual') – Not campaigning for their own sexual access to lesbians’ bodies (I think a lot of them, however they identify, are in reality fairly straight) but trying to police lesbians’ sexuality and, yes, literally saying that if you don’t like d**k you are transphobic. (Oh, and we’re all “man haters” as well for not at least considering men as sexual partners – Another little gem from one of the “woke” who think this is all terribly progressive and not the same old bollocks we’ve heard for years but now coming from people who claim to be part of our community).

While the male-bodied tranactivists arguing for this stuff are of varying ages, the female-bodied people doing this seem to be mainly younger so, while I and other older lesbian friends have walked away from this crap in anger and generally avoid a lot of “LGBT” stuff, mainly socialising with lesbians we already know away from all this, for younger lesbians just coming out, joining university LGBT groups or other groups for support, I think this is going to be their life and they will be much more susceptible to this abuse.

So, yes, I think it is a problem when prominent activists are spouting cotton ceiling rhetoric, when academics are arguing for the legalisation of the rape of lesbians in our universities and when we are being told our own sexuality is wrong and immoral in our own community. Maybe not all lesbians (especially some older ones) are experiencing this but it is definitely going on. I’ve provided linked evidence in my original email (which is a tiny proportion of what is out there). And, if it’s such a small problem with a tiny minority (albeit some of them prominent and influential people) spouting this, what is the problem in condemning it? Why wasn’t Stonewall’s reaction to the lesbians protesting at London Pride about this issue to condemn the concept of the cotton ceiling, while sending a message of support to all sections of the LGBT community? Wouldn’t that have taken down the temperature on this and improved relations?

OP posts: