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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Stonewall should be taking a stand on this?

116 replies

WeAreNotGoingBack · 13/11/2018 21:41

I’m a lesbian who grew up and then came out in the 80s/90s. Growing up there were hardly any positive images of lesbians and it really wasn’t something I wanted to be (the thought terrified me). I remember reading when I was about 12/13 years old that crushes on girls were sometimes “a phase” that teenagers went through and I really prayed that that would be the case with me but reassured myself that, even if it wasn’t, I could still just carry on, get married (to a man) and lead a normal life and no one need ever know.

When I got to university there was a lesbian and gay society and I met others in the same boat. It was quite common that these young men and women had tried dating the opposite sex. I remember one young woman telling me that she had been dating a boy and that they both came out as gay to each other. They thought their relationship worked well because they got on and neither of them really liked sex very much (which on reflection was because they were both with the wrong sex!).

I soon learnt that you got targeted by men for being a lesbian, men who wanted to ‘convert’ you and believed they could ‘show you what you were missing’. Some lesbians get subjected to far worse. In some places this can include ‘corrective rape’ which it was believed would make lesbians straight.

Repeatedly, I encountered the view that it was ‘perverted’, morally inferior to heterosexuality and that it was just about sex (whereas no straight woman who talked about her husband or walked down the street holding hands with her boyfriend would be told that she was throwing her sex life in people’s faces).

Later, I attended groups where I met newly-out women in their 30s and 40s – Women from the previous generation where the pressures to be heterosexual were even stronger and they had felt the need to get married and live within a man for many, many years before coming to terms with their sexuality.

I also met (a few) people who had undergone conversion therapy and one who had been exorcised due to her sexuality – This was a lot rarer than it had been for the previous generation but still went on occasionally.

And that’s what makes me so angry about what is going on now. We have seen this all before, many of us have experienced attempts to change our sexual orientation – either by others or by ourselves due to internalised homophobia. It seemed to be getting better (at least in the UK) and now it’s all coming back.

For those who don’t know the background to this, male people with penises are identifying as being lesbians and lesbians are being told we are bigoted and need to be re-educated if we don’t want to have sex with people with penises. A movement has built up around smashing the “cotton ceiling” (the cotton ceiling representing lesbians’ underwear which the people-with-penises want to break through) [1]

And all the same stuff is coming up again:

  • We’re morally inferior, perverted and our relationships are only about sex - “bigots” and “vagina fetishists” [2]

  • That it’s a “preference” not a sexual “orientation” which we can and should be re-educated to overcome [3]

I was already aware of workshops taking place for people-with-penises on how to break through the cotton ceiling (which again sounds like stuff I remember appearing in lads’ mags in the 1990s on how to bed a lesbian). [4]

Now I hear that students in UK universities in 2018 are being taught that there is “too much emphasis on sexual autonomy” and that sometimes the rights of a person with a (self-identified) marginalised identity (ie a person-with-a-penis who identifies as being a lesbian) to have sex with a lesbian should outweigh the rights of a (female) lesbian to refuse all sexual contact with people-with-penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416075-Shocked-by-sexual-offences-lecture-sex-by-deception-and-bigoted-women

(The academic person-with-a-penis espousing this view is from Keele University – although I believe this lecture took place elsewhere with the lecturer just teaching those views).

And there are other people-with-penises in prominent positions advocating similarly, for example, Dr Rachel McKinnon (the same person who won the women’s cycling race amidst some controversy) lectures on the topic of the “cotton ceiling” and argues that lesbians can learn to “cope” with penises:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3411070-Rachael-McKinnon-another-gem-from-the-you-couldnt-make-it-up-guidebook#prettyPhoto

Meanwhile, parts of the lesbian media (which is primarily run by non-lesbians) are ‘educating’ lesbians on how to have lesbian sex with someone with a penis:

www.autostraddle.com/how-to-have-trans-woman-lesbian-sex-with-a-penis-414839/

If this kind of stuff was coming from evangelical Christians or right-wing politicians Stonewall would be loudly condemning it. So why are they silent on this? AIBU to think they should take a stand?

[1] tgforum.com/wordpress/the-cotton-ceiling/
[2] www.afterellen.com/general-news/553883-despite-cyber-bullying-erasure-young-lesbians-claiming-l-word

“Recently, novelist and LGBT advocate Nora Calder came under fire for asserting that as a lesbian woman she experienced same-sex attraction. One could be forgiven for hoping that in 2018, attitudes might have shifted to the point that such a statement would not be met with backlash. Yet Calder was criticized for disclosing the nature of her sexual orientation, sent a litany of Tweets which accused her of being a “vaginophile”, “vagina fetishist”, “disgusting”, “transmisogynist”, and a “penis demonizer”. In the rush to condemn Calder’s sexuality as bigoted, quite a few people forgot to check their lesbophobia at the door.”
[3] Are Genital Preferences Transphobic?

[4] terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/#jp-carousel-321
OP posts:
EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 16/11/2018 06:47

WeAreNotGoingBack, I agree with everything you say & feel terribly thankful I'm not coming out now.

But Stonewall are a lost cause. They simply don't care about us any more. Ruth Hunt has sold her soul to the trans lobby.

Gileswithachainsaw · 16/11/2018 06:53

Not a lesbian, but am also absolutely disgusted at what's happening.

And it all proves just how much men hate women who love women because men aren't involved, and this is their "way in"

It's horrific. No one has to have sex with anyone they don't want to. And sexual orientation is supposed to be a protected characteristic isn't it?

Lesbians do not exist to validate men who think they are women.

And I'm.truly truly sorry for everyone in the receiving end of this disgusting crap.Flowers

CondomsLubricantAndFlapjack · 16/11/2018 07:52

non-binary’ or ‘queer’ or ‘genderqueer’ or some other trans-related variation, sometimes ''pansexual'

All these terms....

MinisterForMagic · 16/11/2018 21:15

Fuck this! I am officially bisexual but realistically I wouldn't ever date a man again after attempted rape by a narcissistic man I was seeing, then him stalking me when I said I didn't want to see him again.

I have spent my life fighting against gender stereotypes and to TW who say they know they are a woman because they wear red lipstick and carry a gold lame handbag I say fuck that shit. You are NOT a woman. You are stereotyping women. Women are not your Cosplay.

I would be worrying that a woman I had met online claiming to be a lesbian, was actually a manipulative man in a dress. I have seen too many TW on twitter saying they would punch a woman who wouldn't date them or telling lesbians to 'suck my ladycock'. NO NO and thrice NO.

I worked with a TW in the early 2000s. She was manipulative, had no concept of personal space, no concept of acceptable conversation in a work environment and I didn't feel safe in a room alone with her.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 16/11/2018 21:23

”...Women are not your Cosplay...”

Spot on, @MinisterForMagic - I couldn’t have put it better.

MinisterForMagic · 16/11/2018 21:57

Anyone who thinks people are exaggerating the 'cotton ceiling' rhetoric, needs to follow twitter.com/xxposinglesphob on Twitter. She documents everything she sees. There is so much vile prejudice against lesbians.

KonekoBasu · 22/11/2018 11:06

Ok, I followed that twitter link and I now feel sick.

It was the quoted post from 'anonymous' (so a coward) about how it's impossible for a trans woman to rape a woman and if that happened to an underage 'cis girl' (quotes are mine) it might help her find a new gender identity.

I get this could be an unrepresentative minority and the Internet provides this sort of thing a disproportionate amount of space compared, perhaps, to the numbers who actually believe it. But I've never seen big name TRAs come out against any of this cap - I'm happy for someone to correct me on this, I don't spend a lot of time looking into this.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 11:22

Stonewall have taken a stand:

unfortunately it is against lesbians

They have beome just another brigade in the TRA army fight to dominate women

BigChocFrenzy · 22/11/2018 11:25

I am horrified that a Uni would even tolerate someone openly advocating rape

This is becoming like one of those religious hellholes, where men have all the rights and women are just there to be screwed.

Northernparent68 · 22/11/2018 11:31

I think after the legalisation of gay marriage stonewall needed a new cause to just stiff their existence and they choose transexusls.

WeAreNotGoingBack · 23/11/2018 21:09

I am horrified that a Uni would even tolerate someone openly advocating rape

In an age when students seem to be calling more than ever for any lecturers and guest speakers who they disagree with to be banned, I haven't heard about any protests from students about this.

OP posts:
Bimwit · 23/11/2018 21:14

Not a lesbian but the cotton ceiling makes me want to PUKE. No one would DARE tell straight guys to be good little boys and take it up the wrong un, get over THEIR vagina fetish....

WeAreNotGoingBack · 25/11/2018 00:36

Another one...Ada Wells (a person-with-a-penis who identifies as trans) advocates for lesbians (or "cuntscum") to be expelled from Edinburgh Univesity if they refuse to have sex with people-with-penises.

Think lesbians should have someone representing our interests to challenge this kind of stuff? Well, guess who our representative is:

thetab.com/uk/edinburgh/2016/08/18/edinburghs-lgbt-convenor-said-i-sure-hope-police-die-today-24996

OP posts:
ChristmasSprite · 25/11/2018 00:54

Bimwit same here, PUKE, rape is rape.
Cuntscum!!!!??? Jesus Christ!!! I can't speak for expletives!! Just wanting to show solidarity for women, gay or not.
This is such a pile of shite!

ChristmasSprite · 25/11/2018 00:56

How does Stonewall still exist

rubyslipper1 · 25/11/2018 01:02

wow i must live a sheltered life cos ive no clue what all this means. ive never heard of stonewall ,ive also never met a lesbian woman either. i know plenty gay men tho.
are lesbian women being forced to go with trans men ? trans being a man that wants to be woman? why dont he just be a man without the trans and go get a straight woman ? or is that no fun ?
ive nothing against anyone and how they live their lifes but isnt this all too confusing?

bumblenbean · 25/11/2018 06:18

Absolutely appalling and abhorrent. As a straight woman I am horrified that lesbians are being forced to ‘defend’ their right to choose who they have sex with. Even if it is only happening to a small minority of gay women, that is too many.

As a PP said, it’s very telling that gay men are (presumably) not being persecuted for declining to have sex with trans men. Instead it is only saying no to a penis which is apparently discriminatory. Once again, male (i.e. penis-bearers’) dominance abounds.

‘Cuntscum’?!! Words fail me.

WeAreNotGoingBack · 23/12/2018 01:07

And now the National Lottery - via Stonewall - is funding a Canadian transactivist who has run workshops on how to get penises into lesbians to continue their "advocacy and influencing" work in the UK. Angry

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3458395-Looks-like-the-National-Lottery-and-Stonewall-have-picked-a-side-in-the-cotton-ceiling-debate

OP posts:
AGHHHH · 23/12/2018 01:16

The world is so fucked up right now.

"male people with penises are identifying as being lesbians and lesbians are being told we are bigoted and need to be re-educated if we don’t want to have sex with people with penises."

These people need their heads examined if they believe this.

moofolk · 23/12/2018 01:28

YANBU to want Stonewall to take a stand but YAB Unrealistic as the whole organisation seems to be a penis protection league.

Things are fucked up for women.

HumberElla · 23/12/2018 01:52

This is a massive lottery award, giving public monies to an already wealthy organisation, who want to use it to lobby and fund activists to correct the sexual orientation of lesbians.

WTAF

Eminybob · 23/12/2018 02:39

Why are straight men not being pressured into having sex with transwomen in the same way that lesbians are?

WeAreNotGoingBack · 23/12/2018 08:52

Why are straight men not being pressured into having sex with transwomen in the same way that lesbians are?

Probably a rhetorical question but I think the answer is twofold. Men are allowed boundaries. Women are not. Heterosexuality is fully accepted as the norm in society, whereas homosexuality has been treated as something that is immoral and that should be overcome by the individual or corrected by others (now with National Lottery funding behind them!)

OP posts:
Weihnacht · 23/12/2018 08:59

This is horrific. I don't know what to say other than I am 100% with you OP

PerverseConverse · 23/12/2018 09:11

OP it's horrendous that this is happening. I'm straight and stand with you in fighting this. Male entitlement screams so loudly these days and this is just another example of men seeking to dominate women and override our boundaries.
Stonewall are disgusting.
I'd like the world to stop so that I can get off.