To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

It's good that you realise that you can't leave your dd with them. Your dd might not get physically hurt but she's going to be emotionally damaged by what she hears and sees from your Dad. Your mum prioritized him over you. What makes you so sure she'd keep your dd safe? I bet she'd prioritize him over your dd.

Your relationship with your mum is very dysfunctional. Your feelings about her makes it sound like you are the parent and she is the child. She shouldn't be using you as an emotional crutch in her horrible marriage - good parents don't do that.

I have an abusive mother who I have been NC with for over 20 years. I have told my kids that they can contact her when they are adults but as their mum I made the decision not to introduce them so that the cycle of abuse can end with me and my siblings. I don't want her toxicity to taint my kids and I'm proud that it has not. As a mum it is my job to protect them and I did (unless they decide to meet her when they are older but it's unlikely) In an ideal world they would have grandparents but my abusive mother and enabler father would only bring dysfunction to their lives and they don't need the adults in their lives to fuck them up.

If I were you, I would organize some counselling. You seem to minimize a horrible childhood and the fact that you didn't create boundaries with them after you left home (like your brother) screams being caught in the Fear-Obligation-Guilt cycle

Counselling doesn’t make you the weak one, OP, far from it. It would show great strength of mind and character if you went down that road.

I don’t doubt your love for your daughter and desire to do the right thing. Many of us, I think, may sound blunt and harsh because we’ve been there in the confusion and doubt of how we’ve been conditioned, and we know that part of the conditioning is minimising and denial. Counselling can give you a clear head on the things that you clearly know are a concern - you posted here after all. I wish you only well.

I think a few need to understand the mechanics of abuse before they label your Mum as unkind. Maybe contact Women's Aid UK.

No don't let him look after her, if you can speak honestly to him tell him why. I'm sorry but the man needs to know. If I was you I would take great pleasure in it.

Let your mom spend time with your child at your house and your Dad can have contact when supervised . The priority is you and your child, your Mom needs to look after herself. How does your other half feel about it all?

You can say 'Mum. I'm not talking about him anymore with you. There are people out there you can talk to or you can go to therapy. But you are choosing to keep reliving this and I just can't keep doing this and I don't want DC to grow up thinking it's normal for people they love to be stuck like this with no options. ' and anytime she brings it up, repeat and leave/hangup

Your mum didn’t protect you and your siblings, when she was young and probably more able, so she won’t protect your daughter now, after all, she is his enabler. I would say get a child minder and all visits with grandparents supervised

Don't for a second allow him anywhere near your daughter.

Are you the elder sibling by any chance OP? Sorry if you’ve already said and I’ve missed it.

@Justanothernameonthepage yes, you're right. Everyone knows me as 'the strong one' and my brother as 'the peacemaker'.

What if your child is less like you, and more like your damaged brother in their response to your parents?

I honestly think the OP is probably the more damaged one of the pair. One of them took steps to separate himself from his abuser, after all.

You think your mum would "whisk her away" to your home if he kicked off. Did she ever remove her own children from him? She didn't protect you, he physically abused you, you didn't goad him into it because you stood up for yourself. He's abusive full stop.
If he blocks, doorways etc what makes you think he'll let her take your DD?

Your mum didn't put you and your brother first, will you prioritise your dd.
Have you ever asked her why she didn't leave? But please don't let her blame you for that decision. You would have been better away from that abuse. Nothing you have said about him would let him be allowed to push my babies pram round the block.
Your mum has the chance to shape her future, so do you.

What does your DD’s Dad think about all this OP?

OP I'm probably projecting here but I'm actually angry for you. Your mum allowed you to grow up in an unsafe house where your were physically abused, she used you as an emotional sheild to prop herself up.
When I say this it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve compassion she probably grow up in an abusive household.
I'm afraid because of this she can't be trusted to with your daughter but you can be and protecting your daughter is more important than protecting your mother.

I could have written your post.

My mum finally plucked up the courage to leave my father at the beginning of 2018. She's struggling with her decision but did it.

My son is 7. My father has always been nice to him but when in a strop, will withdraw from everyone, my son included. My parents, when together, babysat very regularly for us.

My father uses inappropriate language in front of him - swearing and rages at people and also ignores our strict screen time limits.

I have gone very LC. My son sees his grandad about once a month now. I struggle and worry constantly when he is with him.

You have one world view- or rather, a family story.
These family stories and myths and things that in our family we not ' allowed' to challenge have weight and immense strength.

To have your family ' story' challenged and contradicted by nearly all the posters on this thread-well, difficult doesn't begin to cover that. This must feel almost like the world tilting.

My heart goes out to you. But you really really do need a counsellor. You need a safe place to work through this.

The good news is, although you can't see it now, and probably won't believe me, that these heavy family ' chains' only have power until we choose to step free of them.

And that can be done.

You are not responsible for your mother. If there were no family chains, you could not use her for childcare, giving an excuse suggested above, or the truth.
You could stay where you are.
She could become responsible for her own emotions.

But that's a big step, like dissolving a magic spell.

It may take time.

Are you clear yet that , out of all the options open to you, leaving your child with either of your parents, is not one of them?Are you?

You have to rule that out.
No ifs. No buts.

In the long term, not putting your child first will be far, far worse than any other option.

I agree counselling is a good idea then you can hopefully unpick the damaging effects your abusive childhood is still having on you.

Your father has a lot to answer for.

Take care OP.

Your mother failed you OP. She failed to protect you from that awful man.

I understand the situation is complex in lots of ways, but in one it’s very straightforward: BOTH of your parents are toxic and your child needs to be protected from them.

The sheer fact you even considered leaving your child with them shows how they’ve warped your sense of what is safe and normal.

Your mum is lucky you remain in her life and care about her. I know she is a victim; that doesn’t stop her from also being an enabler.

OP, I could have written your description of your childhood. I'm not going to give you the whole sad story of how that has played out practically and emotionally as first, I've had children and next, my mother developed Alzheimer's -- in short, I and all my siblings not only left home but left the country in our teens, and when the later crises developed police had to step in and remove my mother.
This just to say, although I've criticised my father's behaviour all my life, it's only in the last few years I have realised that the reason I'm still so conflicted is that I love my father. I hate him, but I still love him, however guilty that itself makes me feel.

But love is not relevant here. You may love your daughter and your mother AND EVEN your father. But you only have a duty of care to your daughter.

I couldn't have put it that way when I was at your stage of life, but that's the bottom line.

Quiet a few of us on this thread understand the "mechanics of abuse" from the point of view of the child being served up to it MsLexic. The OP's mum may be a victim but she was also a crummy mother and it's ok for the OP to recognise that.

I know it's not really appropriate for her to run to me for support every time but I do understand because I'm the only person she can talk to that really knows what he's like.
You are right, it isn’t appropriate at all and this is partly why your mum isn’t a suitable caregiver for your DD.

OP, the labels we get given as kids have huge effect on our self view. Please do look at therapy to help you through this. It's not being weak or giving in. It's getting professional help on helping you work through a tricky situation and all the associated emotions it will stir - as well as giving you a handhold through it.

Woah, your suggestion of moving away illustrates how much this is affecting you. Quite frankly It's a batshit crazy idea.

Your mum is in a co-dependant relationship with your dad and you are with her, so it would seem.

You need to not be scared of the fallout with your mum. It's her choice at the end of the day.

I understand. If your mother leaves him, then you will feel even more responsible for her.
You have a new baby and enough on your plate.

You need counselling to help you through this. This must be very difficult to read but I think having a baby is like a new start, for both you and your daughter.

Please look up a counsellor tomorrow. Good luck. None of this is your fault. I hope you will be ok x

He sounds insane :(
No - I wouldn't leave my child with a man who quite clearly is mentally ill.