To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

I don't know why I have never thought of it before, but it's so obvious now someone has said it that my mum of course does need counselling to figure out why she stays. I will suggest it tomorrow.

Yanbu to keep your child away. Your mum had no issue destroying her children’s happiness to save her relationship. So she would never put your child first either.

So sorry for you op. I wouldn't leave dc with him/him & dm at their house. I would let dm come to yours if she wishes.

To put in context my df was a very nasty and angry bully for most of my life and the same with dm and my siblings.

He was an amazingly lovely gf to my first dnephew whilst dn was young and cute and did what df wanted. Fast forward a few years and he (told me) he had lost his temper with dn (over literally nothing) on more than one occasion. I always called him out/pulled him up on it to try & make him see what he was doing. It also made me really upset that he described dn2 as his "favourite" - younger, not at the answering back stage (and crucially the spit of db - dn's father)

I am very sad that df didn't live to see my lovely ds - and I would've taken him to visit - but I would never have left him there without me. Dm wouldn't have stood up to df if he'd gone off on one (she never did for any of us) so wouldn't have left him with the 2 of them either.

Go with your gut on this. Dc is your first priority now. Your job is to protect her xx explain to dm gently if you need to x

@haahhpy
I didn’t outright asked my mum to leave my father, I sort of expected that she would and I actually waited 8months after initially disclosing thr abuse to tell her that if she stayed with him after what he had put us through (emotionally abusive to siblings) then I had no choice but to go NC.
To this day I am more upset that she chose to stay with him, an abuser, and to one of his own children, than what he actually put me through. She chose an abuser over her own children.

As individuals our self esteem can be low and we take a lot more than what we deserve, a lot more than what we would expect other people to take, so the behaviour you have put up with for so long has hurt you but like heck would you allow that for your DC.

You are questioning whether you should leave DD with your parents because your mothers instincts are telling you not to.

Your mum, whether she is vulnerable or not has chosen to stay with him and you can’t change that, if she really loves you and your DD unconditionally then eventually she would realise you are just doing what’s best for DD, she may be upset at first but she’s an adult and will get through it, unlike DD who would probably feel quite confused a lot of the time if she had to spend a good portion of her week at their house.

I think you are probably in for a rough few months emotionally but you are absolutely doing the right thing

No! you DO NOT have to move to the other end of the country in order to not use your mum for child care how ridiculous!! woman- up and tell her the reason she can't have joint child care is your father is an abuser! Ffs I'm starting to hope this thread is a wind up
She can babysit often -on her own!!
most normal families don't Think their dads would never hurt by baby they know 100% unequivocally

Your DF cannot control his anger.

He has physically assaulted you and you say you caused this to happen because you goad him.

So you have concluded that you frustrated him into this behaviour.

How hard might he shake your DD when she is frustrating him because she won't stop crying?

Your DM might not do nothing while it happens this time but is it a risk you're willing to take?

It sounds to me as though he has a personality disorder. I live with this every day as my dd has it and life is hell at times. Everything you described sounded like her. I'm sorry for your mum but I definitely would not leave your little one with them 

So you're going to spring into action.
For your mother.

Not for yourself.
Not to develop greater clarity for the sake of your child.
Not to seek your own emotional freedom and independence.

You're going to spring into action. For. Your. Mother.

You really can't hear us yet, can you?

I feel for you OP but it's not a baby's job to be the catalyst for some drastic improvement in your fathers behaviour. Having his own babies in you and your siblings didn't work did it so I can't see it happening now. You have to put your child first, they are like little sponges and much more perceptive than people give them credit for.

Of course it's sad that your mum would be sad but you can't sacrifice your dd's safety, security and wellbeing to protect your mums feelings, it's not fair on her.

By the sounds of it, your mum was affected by her parents behaviour, then you and your siblings by your fathers. You have the chance to break the cycle here and provide a safe and happy childhood for your dd. Take it 

Do.not.leave.dd.in.their.care.

A lot of people have already pointed out
your mother did not protect you.

Are you really going to take the same risks as her? What if you dd is kicked? Didn’t do you any harm?! So you put her at risk and let this happen, she has internal bleeding, you were okay... but he kicks her a bit too hard and she’s a bit too young to take it...

Don’t even consider this ever again. Your Mum did not keep you safe, she risked your well being and safety.

I love my mother. We are very close, and I hope that she is happy.

But I do not feel responsible for her happiness, nor do I organize my life around fearing to upset her. That is conditioned. Frankly, it sounds a lot like the words I hear from my friends who are adult children of alcoholics.

You can love your mom and still go to counseling to help negotiate the ways your childhood has trained you. You can want her to be happy and still draw this line in the sand. This doesn't make you a bad person or an ungrateful daughter: it makes you an autonomous individual.

Stop with the mum, mum, mum op. You need to wake up and get angry and then take appropriate action, for your daughter's sake. You don't need to suggest counselling to your mum tomorrow, you desperately need to organise and attend an appointment for yourself. Please. Your posts are very worrying. You're tying yourself in knots to maintain the status quo and keep your mother in her cage. Your mum is coming before your daughter and you are in denial about this, but it's the truth. You must face up to the stark reality that both of your parents have let you down very, very badly.

I'm asking you a genuine question based on your beliefs and expectation of yourself.
Who is responsible for your happiness?

So much sympathy for you OP. My father was abusive also.

Please, please, please do not leave your child with him under any circumstances. He has lost that right. Your mothers feelings should not come into it.

My mother often tried to build bridges between myself and my siblings and my father. We are so, so close, and I would never tell her this, but I slightly resent her for it. Why was doing ‘the right thing’ and keeping him happy more important than our safety?

I repeat- do not let your father be around your child. Please unleash your inner mama bear- you have let people in your life be affected by this man. Under no circumstances should you allow your daughter to go though the same. She is an innocent and you must move heaven and earth to keep her safe, no matter how upset your mum is by this. Let her come and look after your child at your house, by all means- but make it clear your father is not invited. Make it clear why. And set up security cameras as I imagine she will let him come anyway.

My thoughts are with you OP

You should never leave your DD in their care. Please for the love of god open your eyes OP. You have a duty of care to protect your helpless daughter not your grown mother. It's an awful situation but do the right thing please.

Op - I want you to imagine someone - a man - kicking your daughter. Hard. More than once. Please - just sit there and imagine it the whole way through.

Now - what do you do about this man who has hurt your child? Report him to the police? Make sure your daughter never has to see him again. Kill him?

Or maybe go to bed with him every night and expect your daughter to carry on living with him?

That is the mother your mother is. Yes - she was also a victim but she wasn’t willing to protect you.

Thought number two - have you ever spent significant time with a toddler? They are annoying. Really really annoying. They answer back. They throw food on the floor. They refuse to do what you ask.

What will your dad do to a toddler who throws their drink across the room?

What will your mum do to protect your toddler? (Clue - how did she protect you when your dad was kicking you?)

For full disclosure I am your dd in this scenario. (Although my grandparents were never violent.) There are 6 grandchildren altogether. 3 of us were protected by parents with good boundaries. We are all happy, functioning adults with happy relationships, kids, decent jobs and very ordinary lives.

3 were not protected so well. 1 is now in an abusive relationship of her own. The other two are aged 35 and 42 respectively and have never managed to form a decent relationship.

It may be coincidence but it does make me wonder.....

You also have to consider what happens to your Dad when your mother's attention is taken away from him onto someone else. Often that is where the 'acting out' and 'kicking off' starts happening. I would figure that the times he gave people the silent treatment and vile torrents of abuse arose from the fact that he was no longer getting attention.
If your baby takes up all your mother's attention - you could fairly accurately predict some 'acting out' by your Dad. Especially if your mother left the house to 'give attention' to another child.

Please tell us you will keep your daughter safe and away from him and the enabler. Not sure how I will sleep tonight literally...

It’s a tragedy waiting to happen. You let your Mum look after her, your Dad shows up demanding her attention cooking or bossing her around. She does whatever to keep the peace, leaves him and your dd. Dd starts crying while the footballs on....head injuries, bleeding on the brain from shaking.

Please think of these outcomes and keep your baby safe.

OP, can you see that by considering huge life changes like relocating just to avoid hurting your mum by seeing her granddaughter in paid childcare, you are still pandering to her and putting her feeings first? Why not be honest with her? Tell her that you are sure she can understand that, given your dad’s recent behaviour, you can’t leave your baby with them. Tell her you have no choice.

Op, when you suggest counseling to your DM, don't forget the part where you say she can't talk to you about him anymore and that you have to put yourself and dc first. And that includes the part where you don't see anyway you can trust your DF around a baby.

The abuse was not “water off a ducks back”. Hope you do seek good counselling and other RL support.

This brings to mind the “triangle” of abuser, victim, rescuer - you as the rescuer, right from childhood.

I have toxic family that can also be lovely at times (as is common with these situations). I've been desperate for help at times and would love a helpful happy family but i've allowed very little unsupervised contact as it's not worth the possible upset. Most contact is for short periods with me present, as DC get older they don't really want to see them. It's very difficult, sad etc but i'm glad that my DC won't have the same emotional scars as me. You need to be a mother first.

Op, please re-read what Spanish Tiles posted.

*. Stop with the mum, mum, mum op. You need to wake up and get angry and then take appropriate action, for your daughter's sake. You don't need to suggest counselling to your mum tomorrow, you desperately need to organise and attend an appointment for yourself. Please. Your posts are very worrying. You're tying yourself in knots to maintain the status quo and keep your mother in her cage. Your mum is coming before your daughter and you are in denial about this, but it's the truth. You must face up to the stark reality that both of your parents have let you down very, very badly.

I'm asking you a genuine question based on your beliefs and expectation of yourself.
Who is responsible for your happiness?

   *

Yes, OP, your posts are very worrying.
I'm worried for you.

And, as someone working in Child Protection, who frequently encounters mothers who can't see clearly how enmeshed they are with family members who are abusive, I really wish I felt confident of your clarity in putting your child's needs first.

OP - I think the suggestions for you to get counselling for yourself do not mean that people think you have MH issues. They mean that you're facing a difficult dilemma, and a good counsellor can help you to deal with it.

A counsellor is more of a coach than a surgeon. She (or possibly he) is a person who has seen many different people in difficult situations, who can listen to you without judgement, and who can be entirely on your and your daughter's side. She can help you to untangle your own feelings and thoughts, so that you can understand what is the right thing for you to do, and she can help you to find in yourself the emotional strength to do it while being at peace with yourself.

If you cannot do this just for yourself, then go see a counsellor for your daughter's sake.

Please don't anyone think reading this that my daughter is not my top priority. I would lay down my life for her. I want nothing more than her to be happy. It is however difficult to get across just how hard breaking away from the situation will be. To make it work I will need to relocate. Geographically we live very close together and I think if I were to get paid child care I would need to move further away to make it less hurtful to my mum. Having my daughter in paid child care just up the road from her would feel like running salt into her wounds. Financially and career wise I will have to make big life changes to arrange paid child care. I'm not saying that any of these things would be a barrier to me ensuring my daughter's safety and happiness, but please don't underestimate how challenging these life decisions are. I had it all planned out for the last year and now I will need to start rethinking it all which is a huge undertaking.*

Op this paragraph you have written is totally misguided, you do NOT need to move to protect your mum from hurt.

She has to change things to protect herself from hurt, YOU have to protect a tiny baby, that is your only job.

You are treating your mum as a child who needs your protection, this is all wrong, she should have protected you from your father and left him...l know it is hard to read and to challenge your views about your mum, l am not saying she is a bad person, but she was too weak to protect YOU and your siblings, don't make the same mistake, be strong and keep your baby away from them both until your mum has left him.

I repeat you are not responsible for her, you can care and be concerned but you cannot control her actions only yours.

Say' l am sorry mum, but due to fathers rages, l am unable to leave GD with you in your house ever, you are welcome to babysit at my house anytime.'

and leave her to it, it is not your choice.

YABU to use DM instead of a childcare provider.

It is simply not worth it, because what if?

You would never forgive yourself.

By all means facilitate nice little visits here and there for you and DC to spend an hour or two, but for goodness sake that's where it has to end.