To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

She didn't protect you, why would she protect your daughter?

When he hurts your daughter, it will be because you sacrificed her wellbeing in favour of your mother's needs. Same way she did with you.

Not a chance in hell would someone like this be near my children.

OP, feeling responsible for your mothers feelings isn't normal, but it's not harmful unless there is abuse involved. In your situation, there is abuse involved. Your father emotionally and physically abused you. You don't think he would hit your mother, you don't think he would physically hurt your daughter. But don't know that. Your daughter is too vulnerable to be left in this situation. You have to put her first.

Just imagine for a moment that they look after her when you return to work. She's behaving like a typical toddler and he looses it with her. How are you going to feel knowing you left her in that situation? You would be neglectful to leave your daughter with either of them, because if I were you I would not trust your mom to keep him away from your DD, even if you asked.

Your mom may be ground down and stuck in this situation, she may be a victim herself. But your daughter is not there to save your mom and give her something to live for. That's not fair on your daughter.

Your mum made the wrong choices.

My mum is with a similar man and expected me to turn a blind eye to the fact that she did not leave. We don’t see each other and only text!

It sounds like you know that you can't leave your DD with him. Everyone agrees.

Your real issue is what you want to do with your mum.

I'd advise you to sit her down alone and explain that you won't let your dd be raised to see and hear the abuse that you did. Tell her that she is welcome to a relationship with dd but not your dad. She needs to choose. Will she protect your dd. This is her chance.

Just no. Your daughter may be exposed to the anger and aggression of an unpredictable man. You and your mum can be complicit or can keep your daughter safe.

A lot of this is ringing true. @spiderplantsalad it's horrible to admit but reading back I can see that I criticise my mum for pandering to him and allowing him to stay in her life but I have done the same. He has been given ultimatums that were actually empty threats. He has had no incentive to change his behaviour.

Please don't anyone think reading this that my daughter is not my top priority. I would lay down my life for her. I want nothing more than her to be happy. It is however difficult to get across just how hard breaking away from the situation will be. To make it work I will need to relocate. Geographically we live very close together and I think if I were to get paid child care I would need to move further away to make it less hurtful to my mum. Having my daughter in paid child care just up the road from her would feel like running salt into her wounds. Financially and career wise I will have to make big life changes to arrange paid child care. I'm not saying that any of these things would be a barrier to me ensuring my daughter's safety and happiness, but please don't underestimate how challenging these life decisions are. I had it all planned out for the last year and now I will need to start rethinking it all which is a huge undertaking.

I will say it once more though, my daughter is my world and I will protect her.

OP just a slightly different perspective but how would you feel if you gave your DM that ultimatum and she chose to stay with DF above having a better relationship with your DD.
I was sexually abused by my F as a child and didn’t tell my DM until I was mid 20s as I thought she would up and leave him and would be unhappy on her own (even though she lived a miserable existence)
When I had my DC, her first GC, I thought that would be the push she needed to leave him if she realised her contact would be limited with my DC if she was still with him. She didn’t leave, is still with him to this day and I have been NC for a good few years now.

I guess what I’m trying to say is you could give your DM that ‘way out’ or choice but it doesn’t mean she will take it and you are not responsible for her happiness when she chooses to stay with your DF who may or may not ever change.

Focus on the things that are in your control, like keeping your DD safe and keeping yours and DHs mental health well by not sending DD somewhere that you would worry about her constantly

You’re not responsible for your mums happiness. Only she is. I understand the societal pressure on her to stay with your dad, but ultimately she’s made the choice to be with him. This means she let him subject you and your brother to emotionally abusive treatment - not talking to your own child for 3 months is extreme behaviour.

I think you’ve become used to being your mums saviour from your dad. This isn’t healthy. Your primary focus now needs to be on your DD - she is a defenceless baby and you can’t let her grow up thinking it’s normal for a man in her life to fly off the handle.

Please don’t use your parents for childcare. And perhaps seek some counselling about why you’re in the role of your mums saviour - You need to understand why your relationship is the way it is, so you don’t repeat the same pattern with your own DD.

To make it work I will need to relocate. Geographically we live very close together and I think if I were to get paid child care I would need to move further away to make it less hurtful to my mum. Having my daughter in paid child care just up the road from her would feel like running salt into her wounds

You do NOT need to move house so your mother doesn't have her feelings hurt!!

Goodness me NO NO NO. Although moving away I think actually would be a good idea.

Right - you need to run to find a good therapist who can help you start to prise yourself out of this psychological prison.

And you need to start googling and reading.

It's really hard hard hard work to reprogram yourself but for the sake of both yourself and your daughter you really need to.

I repeat again BOUNDARIES. Read up on them and start to use them. They are AMAZING.

@AcrossthePond55 maybe I have been burying me head in the sand with regard to my own MH? I'm honestly reeling that so many people are suggesting I been counselling. I am taking what people are saying on board but I certainly need some time to digest it.

Without hesitation your daughters well being comes first over anything or anyone's hurt feelings. The is no way I would leave my DC in the care of someone like your father.

Sorry that should read I need counselling not been

But OP - the thing you need to face, is while you'd lay down your life for your DD, your mother didn't feel the same way about you and your DB.

Thats why you can't trust her with your DC.

So start talking to your DH about how you make this work for paid childcare. And definately think about getting some counselling - many people find that after they have DC, that's when they realise how bad their own childhood was and need help to process that.

Good luck. Hard talks with your DH this week.

Yes I know, everyone is broke from childcare but your daughter would be better off left alone than with with your father. A man who has kicked and beaten her mother.

Can you imagine someone kicked and hurt your daughter? Well you are someone's daughter too. Someone should have protected you.

Yanbu OP

Line in the sand . She does it at your house or not at all . It’s going to cause a shit storm
For sure but you know the answer here

Stand your line , and frankly plan for paid child care

Well done for managing to survive this

Your mum is not kind, she would not have stayed with him if she were ‘kind’.

I’m sorry you’re reeling - it must be hard to read all these posts. I would say it’s extreme to consider moving house and area just to avoid your mums feelings getting hurt. This suggests to me that protecting your mum Ian the thing you feel you must do at all costs - to make her life better as it’s so shitty with your dad.

Your role is not to make your mum happy or her life with your dad bearable.

... and if you can, do try to get counselling. You haven't got off as lightly as you thought.
Perhaps your brother had the right idea all along in getting away.

To make it work I will need to relocate. Geographically we live very close together and I think if I were to get paid child care I would need to move further away to make it less hurtful to my mum

Honestly OP, this is insane. You need to think about therapy because you should not be considering moving away from your parents just to save hurting their feelings. That is honestly crazy. Your mother is a grown woman, she can handle a bit of feeling upset and hurt.

And to be brutally honest, she watched your dad upset and hurt you for years whilst doing nothing about it, you shouldn't be thinking about going to such extreme lengths to protect her feelings when she didn't protect yours.

X post - I think you need counselling, because you have minimised your Mum's behaviour and made her an equal victim to you and your DB, even though you were children and she was an adult.

Your Mum didn't put you first. When you have your own child and realise you'd do anything for them, it can be shocking to realise your own mum didn't feel the same way about you. And it might be worth getting counselling to explore this, not waiting for it to hit you, then trying to deal with it.

Your child comes first. You have to make sure she's safe. Find a good nursery now. Tell your parents the truth. You cannot trust your dad with the baby when he becomes enraged. If he shakes your baby out of temper she will end up brain damaged. Your baby's more important than hurting your mother's feelings.

@NiceniceNC I have always tried to refrain from outright telling my mum to leave him exactly because I don't want to feel even more responsible for her. If she left him on my advice I would feel even more responsible for her. She definitely knows how I feel and I try to offer practical advice, suggesting solicitors / police involvement when he gets bad so there's a record if she ever tried to divorce him etc. Or I'll ask her what advice she would give a friend in her situation to get her to think rationally about why she is staying with him. I instinctively shy away from directly saying to her though "leave him". I don't know if this is the right or wrong thing.

No one thinks it will be easy OP. It will hurt your mum and may have you questioning your mum's actions throughout your life. But please look at the fact you'd rather move house and job, than be upfront with your DM. You can't control her reaction but you should be able to be straightforward with her, even if it means tears on both sides.
Were you given a lot of expectations growing up? Lots of 'you're the strong one so I can talk with/trust you' and 'I need to be able to rely on you to help' ? You seem to feel that strength is taking responsibility for your mum's actions and emotions and I wonder where you learned that from.

You do not need to change your life/move house at all! It isn’t rubbing salt into a wound! Doesn't matter where you live, you will be paying for childcare. Makes no difference to how hurt she will feel. However, as we have all said, this is ultimately her decision

It's honestly hard for me to comprehend that people don't feel responsible for the happiness of their loved ones though?

It's very interesting that you don't stop to think about the fact that your Mum doesn't seem to give a shit about your feelings.

Why didn't she stop to think about your feelings when her husband was physically assaulting you?

Why didn't she stop to think about your brother's feelings when his mental health was suffering and he was self-harming?

Wake up. This is NOT normal. Your brother has vanished far away to get the distance he needs from this toxic situation, and you are proposing to move house just so that paid childcare won't upset your Mum!!

Think about how you feel about your daughter. Now imagine her being abused and treated the way that your Dad treated you - would you stand by and let it happen?