To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

I've only skimmed the thread so apologies but I left my ex who was similar to this. Whilst we were still together it had a massively negative effect on my baby. Do not underestimate the emotions that babies pick up on and become very unsettled. It's upsetting to think back on how unhappy my DS was when young due to the negativity in our house.
I wouldn't let your mum have the baby at yours whilst you work either. Your dad will come round and the trust will be broken.
Easier just to get a proper childminder /nursery then less stress for everyone.
Make it up to your mum by including her in loads of family time together, WhatsApp/Facebook group with lots of pics to the 'best nanny' everyday, ask her advise etc etc.
She doesn't have to provide childcare whilst you are at work to feel important in the child's life.

Sort out paid childcare for your child. She must be your no1 priority.
You are not responsible for your mum's happiness. She can still be a granny but only on your terms and whilst you or your DH are present.
You cannot manage your fathers behaviour.

Sorry OP I cross posted with your last update.

I want my parents to be proud of me and of course I want them to be happy but the absolutely crucial difference is it brings me pleasure relaxation and joy to bring these things into their lives SIMPLY by existing and being myself, I don't have to compromise my joy or values to make them happy, I certainly don't compromise my babies safety in order to keep my mum sane.
Maybe some tough love will make her see sense

I'm getting off this thread now because it's all been said. If op doesn't want to listen, or is winding us up I can't watch it.
Your mother or your daughter? Choose. Get your husband to help you.

Your father sounds exactly like an abuser, not someone with MH issues. That would be separate. The gaslighting, the violence, the Jekyll and Hyde personality changes.
Your Mum will never be able to recognise this without breaking her own heart. But you are young and clearly sensible enough to do so.
I would not personally leave a child with him.
Women are not put on this earth to fix men. We are not here to tame monsters. Maybe your Mum still has time to recognise the horrible situation she is denying. She probably has cognitive dissonance and has entered so far into the weirdness it has become normalised.
Of course you have a personality clash with him. You challenge his control! Anyone who challenges him will find the same.

I don't think he's ever hit her ... I do also think that I'd things go bad my mum would whisk her away up to my house immediately

I suspect you're kidding yourself, OP - maybe as a way to avoid confronting your mother with news you'd rather not break

Perhaps ask yourself what you'll do if DF harms your DD and Social Services become involved. Do you honestly believe the DM who's already enabled your DF's abuse of yourself would cooperate in an investigation, or would she revert to protecting him, bleating that it was "only a little tap" and leaving you swinging in the wind because "you don't know what would become of her" if you push the issue?

Why not confront this now, with support if necessary, rather than put it off until your child is harmed or worse?

I think paid childcare is 100% the way to go, it would be an utter nightmare. You'd be constantly stressed even if it was just your mum, he cold bully his way into it, he would probably make her life hell.

It's not your responsibility to hand over your DD to them to make them feel a better, your mum will still be able to see her, just you can keep an eye.

Parents doing childcare can be fraught anyway add all this into the mix, nightmare for you.

PS. I don't think your Mum is selfish. I think she is victimised and trapped.

I can see this is very hard for you.

But we who are not in it, can also see that you're NOT able to see this clearly.

A poster above summed it up:
*. You Mum didn’t protect you, she allowed you to grow up with a mentally, emotionally and physically abusive parent.

Why would you put your DD in the same position? *

You replies are about your mother, your obligation to make her happy ( which is crazy - she's an adult, responsible for her own emotions), the effect on her, and your father.
In contrast, what you've written about your DC, who I'm sure you love very much, is a bit theoretical - role models in relationships, etc.

My hunch is, you're not going to be able to see this situation clearly until you are prepared to risk feeling a lot of pain and anger towards your parents. Both of them

Find yourself a good counsellor to support you through this, and to create a safe contained space to look at the parenting and gaslighting you had from your parents.

Cause you're still in the fog, darling.
You need to get out, both for you, and to be the parent your child needs.

None of this is your fault.

But you need to leave the fog- just hoping that one or both of them could be good grandparents, like the ones you had, just doesn't cut it.

You don't leave a small child with abusive people with squoowiffy dynamics, in the hope they'll do better second time around.
You just don't.

You seem to see your mother as a victim of this - but she's not. You are only angry at your Dad, but you might find as your DD gets older, you get really angry at your Mum for not prioritising you and your brother.

It might be worth using your mat Leave to get some counselling, because when you stop feeling like your Mum's feelings should be your priority, it could get emotionally messy.

"She's been telling her friends and family about her new future caring for her granddaughter. It just feels like the cruellest thing in the world to take that from her."
I can think of something far far crueller. Making your daughter feel that she has to put her baby daughter in harm's way, because of what you want. And, I suspect she's been telling all and sundry as a way of forcing your hand. Maybe not consciously; but let's face it, that she's been broadcasting this does produce expectations in everyone she's told. Expectations that become a pressure on you, pressuring you to allow what she wants. That's cruel too.

Yes, your mother has been ground down over many years, and may feel unable to leave your abusive father. Still doesn't make putting your daughter into his care a solution. He will at some point rage in front of your daughter. And you said yourself, it goes on for months.

Your mother's needs are your mother's business. Your daughter's needs are yours. Your child comes before all other loved ones, including your mother.

"I just feel if I take this away from my mum it will push her to leave him. While I think this is the right decision I know it's not what she wants to do. If she is pushed to do it by me so that she sees her grandchild I just know I will feel eternally responsible for her happiness. If she's miserable without him I'll blame myself."
You need to get over feeling responsible for your mother's happiness. You are not, she is. That you feel responsible does point to your dysfunctional family having affected you more than acknowledge.

Totally agree with MsLexic

Your poor DM has been ground down for years and is emotionally crushed. She can't see a way out.

I'm sorry but your vulnerable daughter needs to be put ahead of 2 people who have both, in their own way, made your life difficult and painful. Your Mum should have protected you but didn't. You need to stop the cycle and protect your daughter.

When you love people and care for them, of course you want them to be happy. But that is not the same as being responsible for their happiness - that’s down to each adult individual.

Your poor mum is caught in the trap that so many abused women find themselves in, and years of habit make the painful cycle hard to break. She doubtless wants to be happy but for all those familiar reasons feels unable to reach out for the freedom that would bring her that happiness.

You have already made the break from your father in your own way. Again, your choice. But your daughter needs you to make the right choices for her now, and that means focusing on what she needs, Not your mum, or your dad.

It’s a hard position to find yourself in but you need to be strong, for your daughter’s sake.

I don’t have children but like many other posters have said, there’s no way I’d be leavinga child in the care of someone as unpredictable and volatile as your dad.

What does your H say in all this? Is he supportive?

You have been affected by your traumatic upbringing far more than you realise. This is indicated quite clearly in your post above when you minimise your vile father's abusive behaviour.

I don't think he's ever hit her. He's been rough, blocking doorways, throwing things about if not directly at her etc. All these things are as bad as being hit. They are all forms of abuse. It is absolutely not acceptable, it is not what happens in most households and certainly not something any child should ever have to witness.

He was more physical with me I think because as I say I would always argue back at him which would rile him up further. But this was not a common occurrence

It shouldn't have occured at all. It was abuse. And your mother stood by and let it happen. She failed to protect you. She will fail to protect your daughter in the same way.

I don't think he'd physically hurt my daughter. But you can't be sure. And it isn't just physical abuse that harms children.It is being in the toxic atmosphere of a home where abuse happens so regularly it becomes the norm. Don't let it become your daughter's normal.

As PPs have said over and over - you are NOT responsible for your mother's happiness, but you ARE responsible for your daughter's happiness, her safety and emotional well being. You cannot let an abusive man and a woman who failed to protect her own children from an abusive man look after your daughter. It's that simple OP.

And I agree your husband should be with you when you tell them it's not going to happen.

If you let your parents look after your child, then you are doing to your daughter EXACTLY what your mother did to you. Protecting your dad and neglecting the child.
Stop.
You need to stop this.

Keep your daughter away from your father at all costs. You are an adult and can walk away but your daughter is a baby and will be trapped there every day. Don't do it to her.

If it was me, I would lie. Say your husband wants the baby to be at a certain nursery because he gets credits from work or some other bullshit. Make up something to gloss it over and KEEP YOUR BABY AWAY FROM YOUR FATHER.

Good luck.

"I just feel if I take this away from my mum it will push her to leave him. While I think this is the right decision I know it's not what she wants to do. If she is pushed to do it by me so that she sees her grandchild I just know I will feel eternally responsible for her happiness. If she's miserable without him I'll blame myself."

This isn’t your choice, it is hers.

She can choose whether to look after her granddaughter and leave him or stay with him and see her granddaughter but not do childcare.

The fact that there isn’t an alternative choice is out of your control.

You would be unreasonable to leave your child with him. He mentally and physically abused you, your brother and your mother, so he will do the same to your child. Mental health issues or not, your child and their wellbeing comes first.

You are not responsible for your mothers happiness, she made the choice to stay with a man who abused his own children; this in itself is evidence that she will not stop your father abusing your child, because she didn't stop him abusing his own.

I say this as a first time mum who has had several explosive arguments with my own mother about her harmful behaviour and my refusal to let her subject my daughter to it. I cried for weeks, our relationship hasn't been the same since, and I doubt we will ever have the same closeness that we once had. It's hard, but at the end of the day, we protect our children at all costs. I don't envy you your position, but I think you already know the right course of action deep down.

I'll be blunt: you would be a crap parent for letting your father near your DD without you being there to get her out of there if he behaved badly immediately.

Your mother cannot stand up to him.

Your brother cannot stand up to him.

You can, but you have to be there to do it.

Do NOT let him have unsupervised (by you) access to your daughter. I'm sorry that will suck for your mother, but she has chosen to stay with him, and that decision has consequences.

What if your child is less like you, and more like your damaged brother in their response to your parents?

How would that be?

You need to put your daughter first here.

Irrespective if your father is severely mentally ill or just a vile abuser (I say just as even if he is severely mentally ill, it's still abuse) it doesn't change whether he would be a good influence on your daughter.

Tiny babies and children pick up more than you think. Time of voice, awkward tension, aggressive slamming etc could be very damaging.

Sorry to get all armchair Psychologist on you but it seems that due to your fathers behaviour your role has become to console and mother your mother, so she feels safe and happy.

The thing with this is who is doing this for you? You say it's water off a ducks back and to a certain degree it is but that's because you have the role of confidant to your Mum.

But as an adult with her own child you need to realise it was never your responsibility to make sure your mother was happy. That was for her to determine. Now you feel bound to keeping her happy even when it's at odds with what you feel is right for your child.

But put it this way the worst thing that happens is she feels sad, disappointed and pushed out. Perhaps it will make her look at her relationship with your father? Perhaps it may spur her to do more activities to keep herself entertained and happy and best of all you will be more like mother and daughter.

Don't get me wrong it's a real shame she can't look after her as I'm sure she adores her. But deep down she knows it's not sensible and that although your Mum isn't responsible for your fathers behaviour, by staying with him and taking his behaviour into account there will be consequences.

If she is pushed to do it by me

Pushed to do it by HIM.

OP. I have been exactly where you are. I don’t want to put my personal details on here but happy to PM you about it. It is a horribly complex issue.

@Haahhpy we x-posted a bit up thread there.

Listen, 'normal' is a relative term. I don't think your feelings about your mum are 'abnormal' per se, just that the balance is thrown off because your mum does not reciprocate your feelings of 'responsibility'. But responsibility isn't the right word for the way it should work. Let's say 'concern'.

I have always been 'concerned' about my mum's happiness because she's always been 'concerned' about mine. But neither of us have felt 'responsible' for the other's happiness. Does that make sense? Do you see the difference between concern and responsibility? But it seems to me that your concern for your mum's happiness is greater than her concern for yours. Your relationship with your mum is off balance, I think. Why? I have no idea, maybe because she was so desperately unhappy when you were growing up. It's 'normal' to respond to unhappiness in those we love.

If you feel it would benefit you, consider some counseling to dig through your feelings about your relationship with your mum. It might help you get a healthy balance in place. But as far as your dad, I think you know the right thing to do. Counseling may also help you deal with any fallout from that decision.