To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

Nobody actually seems to hear me when I say this but I'll say it one more time, my daughter is my priority and I will protect her.

We are hearing you op. But then you go to still try and placate your mum, even to the extent of saying how you need to move house to soften the blow. Quite frankly that is bonkers!

I have a similar mother in that she wouldn't leave my alcoholic father. I've had counselling to help me work through the fact that she could leave him and not condemned our childhoods to his abuse. She thought it would be better for us as she could manage the situation. I'm still in contact with her but I'd never ever trust her.

I know it's all hard to hear and you must be reeling. This will take professional help to unpick a lifetime of conditioning.

You can’t leave your little one with that man. If he has violent rages, a screaming baby or a toddler is likely to increase stress and push him over the edge. It is not you or your baby’s responsibility to provide happiness and light in you mother’s life. Your father isn’t likely to change and if anything will get worse.

I speak as someone with a mentally ill mother and I know it is difficult to separate the illness and behaviour. With her, I have no hesitation with my parents having the child for the odd day/evening as she doesn’t have a violent bone in her body. Grandchildren bring a huge amount of joy to both my parents. However, I know they wouldn’t cope with a regular commitment as they are getting too old and I think the potential stress would be detrimental to my mother’s mental health which is stable. If she was poorly, I would not expose my children to it as I know how confusing and scary her frequent episodes of psychosis were growing up.

I know you believe you will protect your DD, and she comes first.

But you came on here first asking if you should continue with the child care arrangement or not.

That and your sense of responsibility for your mother's happiness, show how your childhood has affected your thinking.

You really need to see a good counsellor to work through this.
Counselling doesn't mean Mental ill health, but it can help you break out of "patterns of thinking", and gain clarity. Do find someone you can work with and is not "telling you what to do".

I think this is a pretty straightforward situation OP.

Tell your parents that you won’t leave your child with them because of your dad’s abusive behaviour.

Tell your mum she can look after your child at your house. If that action runs the risk of making your dad more vile to her, then she has a choice - she can ride it out (as she has for years), she can leave him, or she can opt out of the childcare arrangement.

She’s an adult, she has options.

She chose not to protect her own children from an abusive man. That’s dove now, and can’t be changed. But surely she’ll understand that the next generation mustn’t also carry this burden?

OP, it's not that no one hears you saying you'll put OP first, it's that when you've been stuck in an abusive relationship your entire life and trained to put your dms feelings above your own. It's hard to break the pattern and so so easy to hope and believe that this time it's different. That DM might protect your dc when she didn't protect her own. That DF might not abuse your DC.
Putting your DC above your DM will take a firm action and being honest with your DM. Not simply moving away to avoid it (then it will be requests to have the DC during school holidays).

Done not dove

Putting your DC first that should say.

I think you need to email her and say that as much as it breaks your heart, you cannot allow Dad access to your DD. Just that. Let your mother then make her own choices. It might be the catalyst she needs to leave her abuser.
She will reply with all the reasons you are wrong to take this decision and it will give you a chance to put some of the choice expressions from this thread.
Sometimes a cataclysmic event has to occur to effect change. Your Mums cataclysmic event is to have access to your DD restricted. She can then make her decision based on yours. She will know in her heart that you are right.
Are you strong enough to put your DD first OP? There is only one way of doing this and it's by being STRAIGHT WITH YOUR MOTHER .

So please, please look at getting therapy to help you through this. When looking for one, say you're looking for help navigating an abusive family and new baby so you can get someone recommended in this dynamic. You can still tell your mum she should look to talk to a therapist instead of you.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him.

Yet she allowed your father to abuse her children, to the extent that your brother self-harmed and is now (rightly) distanced himself from his family.

I know this is hard to hear, but your mother wasn't just a victim of your father. She was also her enabler and accomplice. She is just as responsible as your father is for what happened to you and your brother.

If she didn't protect her own children from her abusive husband, what makes you think that she would protect your daughter?

Please do not leave your baby with these people. He is not alright with children if he did what he did to you and nor is your mum for not protecting you. What makes you think she'll protect your daughter? People like that (your dad) are always ok until the next thing happens to set them off. I was with an abuser for about 3 years and I realised eventually that NOTHING I ever did would be good enough. I agree with pp that you should be persuading your mum to leave him and offering her support to do that. Not enabling him and giving him the go ahead to continue acting abusive by letting your daughter go there. You have to explain this to your mum. If she left him she'd have you, your daughter and her friends. She may be excited about looking after dd and telling her friends, but surely they must have an inkling of what he is like and would understand why you wouldn't allow this. If she won't leave him, let her visit your dd to remain in contact but don't leave your dd there.

I agree with pp that you should be persuading your mum to leave him and offering her support to do that.

It's not the OP's responsibility to persuade her mum to do anything. She can offer her full support, though.

Bloody hell. Do not leave any of your dcs with this man.

Your poor mum. She's clearly beaten down and worn out by his dreadful behaviour. But there's not a lot you can do. It's up to her.

Your poor mum. She's clearly beaten down and worn out by his dreadful behaviour.

It's hard to say, but often enablers derive a feeling of purpose from their (masochistic) relationships. The spouses of alcoholics often break down when their partners stop drinking, for example. It may be that the OP's mother feels that her husband needs her, or that he's all right as long as she's there to take care of him, etc. She feels needed, and perhaps that's the only way she can feel valued. And that's also why she is so keen on caring for her granddaughter.

It is sad, yes, but nobody forced the OP's mother to stay with an abuser, much less allow him to abuse her children. It was her choice.

It's really interesting isn't how a parent in this situation is prepared to leave their tiny baby exposed to a very troubled grandparent.

I had a parallel issue in my family but nowhere as extreme. I was prepared to leave my newly firstborn DD with a dysfunctional grandparent. In fact I trusted them more than anyone.Why? .Partly because I was a single parent and it was free childcare!

But to attempt some amateur psychology it's more than that -it's because despite everything you trust them.It seems to me that it's because it's your 'normal'. As you grew up with that, even though there are many issues, you still trust that situation because you know it, and their your parents.

However, thinking about it logically. Putting your child first isn't it better to really interview dozens of childminders, nanny shares, nurseries until you find a warm, nurturing, wholesome loving environment. In this way your daughter is exposed to new role models.Also a balance and sort of functionality gets added to your family. It sort of helps counter balance the dysfunction iyswim?

A lot of victim blaming of the mother here

The dad is the one at fault here . He has wronged people

But I agree with everyone . Time to unleash the shitstorm

Poor OP , but after the pain some good might come

A lot of victim blaming of the mother here

A mother who allows her children to be abused is as guilty as the abuser. Sorry. (And yes, I know about the mechanics of abuse, thank you.)

Stopshouting isn't it more acknowledging that the mother as well as being a victim, also allowed the physical and mental abuse of her children and took part in the mental abuse of the OP and as such, should not be trusted to protect a baby. Many abusers are victims themselves of something, but it doesn't give them a pass to be forgiven.

Looking in from the outside it seems very obvious that it would be irresponsible of you to leave your child with your parents.

Please don't kid yourself that your father won't hurt your daughter, he is already hurting her indirectly through his abuse of you and your mother, and he will of course continue to behave as he always has whether or not you would like to think he won't.

I think you know what you have to do to keep your daughter safe.

Maybe at last your mother will leave this wretched man. What an awful bully he is.

Nobody actually seems to hear me when I say this but I'll say it one more time, my daughter is my priority and I will protect her.

We do hear you. But almost every single post of yours is about your Mum - her feelings, her being upset, her being a victim, her happiness.

When being told, quite firmly, that paid-for childcare is the only way forward, your immediate response was to say that you would need to move house so as to avoid hurting your Mum's feelings!

That is why posters, including me, are hammering home the message that you aren't responsible for your Mum. That actually your Mum failed you and your brother by not protecting you both from your Dad - and that the dynamic between the two of you is unhealthy and reversed because you are 'parenting' her, rather than centring your DD's needs first and foremost.

Your Mum is a victim, there's no doubt about that. But even with the mechanics of victimhood, she stood by as you and your brother were systematically abused by your Dad. She did nothing to remove either of you from that situation - ergo, you cannot rely upon her to act in your DD's best interests.

Your mum is not kind, she would not have stayed with him if she were ‘kind’

Comments like this don't help. Nor does blaming OP's mother for what happened years ago.

She could, and should had
ve got out - but only those women here who have been through an abusive relationship, who have children to feed, clothe and house and no money to do it with other than the abusive father's income, who are worn down physically mentally and spiritually and too afraid to take a breath with permission in case it sets off another violent fit of rage - only THOSE women can BLAME her - criticise her, yes - but blame, no.

OP - I am with others on this - I don't think that you can allow your DM to take your DD to her home to care for, but I think that caring for her in your own home is a possibility. Tell her she can do this but your DF doesn't come - and mean it. Set up a Nanny cam - spy on her (I know it's horrible, but she isn't the one you need to worry about - it's him) so you know that he is not there when you aren't. If you want, tell her that she's being filmed so that you aren't being underhand - that's up to you.

Your DM doesn't have the same emotional and financial pressures on her as she had when you were young. Allowing your F to kick you was beyond dreadful, but fear can be paralysing, and that may have been what she experienced.

Warn her that if your F comes into the house without your permission and/or presence, then that will be the end of any babysitting.

Children need people who love them in their lives. Your DM loves your DD (your F may too - but you can't trust his temper). At the same time you have a responsibility to protect your DD from his anger, even if he isn't violent towards her.

Be aware that if you decide to do this, or decide not to let her look after your DD at all, he will very likely kick off and take it out on your DM. This will confirm your worries, obviously, but you will need to be there to support her.

Relationships are very complex things. Your DM may not even be able to function (or may think she can't) without his companionship, even if it is abusive - they've been together a lot of years. On the other hand, the opportunity to form a bond with your DD may be what gives her the confidence to step away from her marriage.

only those women here who have been through an abusive relationship, who have children to feed, clothe and house and no money to do it with other than the abusive father's income, who are worn down physically mentally and spiritually and too afraid to take a breath with permission in case it sets off another violent fit of rage - only THOSE women can BLAME her - criticise her, yes - but blame, no

No. Only the children of those women can blame her. And they should.

Oh and in terms of being complicated - it's really not. It only feels that way because you are mired in FOG: Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

When you break it down it's quite simple: Your parents cannot babysit your DD for reasons we have already discussed. Your DD will therefore be going into a professional childcare setting. Your Mum is welcome to see your DD when either you or your DH are there.

You're telling yourself it's complicated because you are frightened of upsetting your Mum and are therefore putting yourself in the position of managing her feelings. But you are overlooking the fact that your Mum's feelings are directly linked to the fact that she is married to an abusive man. Victim or not, a consequence of staying in that marriage is that she cannot babysit your DD. That's not your fault and it's not you trying to push her into doing something she doesn't want to do - it's a simple statement of fact that your DD needs to be protected.

It doesn't really matter if the OP's Mum couldn't protect her children rather than wouldn't.

What matters is that she didn't and she won't.

No. Only the children of those women can blame her. And they should.

I stand (semi-) corrected distance - but I do feel that it is easy to bandy blame when you haven't been through something yourself.

I blamed my battered mother for many years for the life we had - it's only as I have got older that I have realised the huge societal, financial, physical and emotional pressures she was under, physically crushed, mentally depressed and helpless. She did a lot wrong, but I wonder if I would have managed any better? there wasn't the support then that there is now to help a woman escape an abusive relationship.

But OP's DD is the important one in this.