To destroy my mother's happiness to protect my daughter from my father? Please help me.

[Haahhpy]

I'm sorry in advance that this will be long. There's a lot of history and the back story is necessary. I am worried about the influence of my dad on my daughter (12 weeks old) but it would completely devestate my mum to restrict her contact with her granddaughter. There are several aspects I need help and advice on.

My dad is a very difficult man. He is I think extremely emotionally abusive. He has been diagnosed with depression but I am unsure whether there is some other mental health disorder which is undiagnosed (he lies to the GP). His default reaction to any adversity in life is rage. This used to be directed at me and my brother but since we left home this is focused solely on my mum. He can go months being very nice and kind, he's very good at DIY and loves to help people. But then when something goes wrong (can be quite a small thing) or there's any kind of slight disagreement in the family he will just turn. He becomes so angry, shouts and yells, says terrible things, is menacing and hostile. This can go on for weeks or months with long periods where he just completely ignored your existence (as a teenager living at home with him he once did not acknowledge me or speak to me for three whole months). He also gaslights when he is in these episodes (and I know the term is bandied around but I mean properly). He hides things like keys etc, breaks things and denies it, rewrites history, swears black is white and makes you question your sanity. He has had therapy, he's on antidepressants, he's done CBT and mindfulness courses. There have been numerous 'showdowns' and ultimatums about his behaviour. Things will improve for a while and each time we all start thinking maybe he has changed but eventually he slides back to his old patterns of behaviour.

My mum is a kind, patient, gentle woman. She has spent the last 35 years trying to 'fix' him. She spends a lot of her life miserable because of his episodes. We have a very close relationship and speak or see each other every day (usually just us, not with my dad too). I have thought for as long as I can remember that she should leave which she knows but does not have the strength to do / chooses not to. I feel like my heart is actually breaking watching how much he hurts her.

Through the years there have been times when I gave cut him off completely but gradually for my mum's sake I have let him back in to my life. For full disclosure out of me, my mum and brother I am the least affected by him and his behaviour. I have never been afraid of him like they are. I call him out on his shit and will say it like it is (have told him to his face I think he's an emotional abuser). He hates this as he can't stand being disagreed with. Also, for full honesty he was physically violent with me a few times growing up (kicked me quite hard a few times etc) but as I said our personalities do clash and I always gave as good as I got (verbally as I was obviously no match for him physically). I have told him that any relationship we have is for mum's benefit only.

When they found out I was pregnant both my parents were overjoyed (it's their first grandchild). They immediately offered to provide childcare for her when I go back to work and were generally very excited for the future. My dad loves kids and we all thought maybe this would be a fresh start for him. Looking after her would give his days meaning and purpose and he seemed very positive about the future so all was well. We were all very hopeful.

Fast forward to this week. His estranged step father died (virtually NC for 20 years) and he's gone into a tailspin. Screaming and raging at my mum to the point she had to come to stay with me. All our hopes that he'd changed have been dashed again.

I'm now wondering if leaving my daughter with him is an irresponsible move. I don't honestly think he'd ever hurt her but I want her to be influenced by seeing positive relationships as she grows up, not abusive ones. However, when I broached this with my mum she was devestated. She's so looking forward to having her when I'm back to work the thought of missing out on that destroyed her. I know people will say she shouldn't depend on her grandchild for happiness but what else has she got while living with him?

So to my AIBUs:

1: AIBU to accept their offer and let them care for my daughter (possibly but setting good toke midels for relationships). I feel incapable of hurting my mum by taking this away from her when I think it's basically her only source of real happiness.

2: OR AIBU to be so hard on my dad when he does after all have mental health issues? I am so unclear in my own mind how much of his behaviour is illness or if it's abuse? Where do you draw the line? And how much should you tolerate while making excuses because of his mental health? I'm so confused as to whether I'm a cold bitch with no sympathy for mental illness or whether my mum is just buying into the old chestnut that all abusive men are actually tortured souls who need a woman to save them.

Sorry it's so long and thank you if you've read to the end. Any opinions or advice are welcome. Thank you x

OP imagine if your parents were professional childminders and not your parents, you wouldn’t use them in a million years would you? So don’t use them just because it would upset your mum otherwise or because they’re free. And your mum, not you, is responsible for her own happiness.

BarbarianMum "Quiet a few of us on this thread understand the "mechanics of abuse" from the point of view of the child being served up to it MsLexic. The OP's mum may be a victim but she was also a crummy mother and it's ok for the OP to recognise that."

This exactly.

This is how dysfunction works, the OP was abused and her mother stood by and let it happen when she had the choice, the OP has learned that that is what mothers do.

You put up with dangerous men and let them do whatever they want to your kids and you try not to upset him, that is what mothers do.

The mechanics of abuse may well mean that the OP can't see the bigger picture, she learned what mothers do from her mum.

OP break the chain, protect your daughter in a way your mum couldn't/wouldn't. Otherwise she will learn that this is just what mothers do.

Hopefully your DH is strong enough to push back and keep his daughter safe from this dynamic.

I agree that your brother is probably the stronger one, he got away, you are still trapped.

While I appreciate this isn't easy, I admit to being disturbed that despite comments about protecting your DD, the very first active measure you've suggested is to recommend counselling for your mother - not for yourself, but her

You've also not answered the several PPs who've asked what your DH's view is about this

I'm just wondering ... if it turns out that you're unable to protect your DD appropriately because of the cost to your mother, is there anyone else who'd step in - whether that's your DH or someone else?

Dear OP, I hope you will take all this good advice and put it to use. Both your parents I would say have forfeited the right to ever have sole charge of your child. You dad by his abusive behaviour, and your mum by allowing you and your brother to grow up with that abuse. Actions have consequences, and while it will be hard for you, you must not allow any unsupervised contact. It has been mentioned about your mum babysitting at your house, but can you honestly trust her to not allow your dad in?

I hope you have some real life support in reading all these replies, OP. I can't imagine how it must be to read them. I think the strength of feeling is because it is so rare for someone to be at a crossroad where the choice is so significant and seems - to us on the outside - to be so clear. On the one hand something amazing - to break the cycle of abusive/enabling behaviour, and provide that loving, safe life for your daughter. On the other, to gamble your daughter's mental and physical safety on both your parents behaving differently than they have even in the recent past.

Your daughter can't yet show her full personality to you or express her needs as your mother can. But she is as real and important a person as your mum and she is yours to protect and cherish. The next three years are critical as what she learns now about love and attachment will influence the rest of her life. Just imagine how you would feel if one day something happens, and she looks at you, the centre of her world, and realises that her grandmother did not protect her, and you are not surprised. Will you have the words to explain why you chose to allow that situation? Will you let her go back again? Or will you draw the line now before any damage is done?

Wishing you strength.

What a complex situation. Your mum has been beaten down over the years and her confidence destroyed by this abusive man that she failed to protect you and your brother. You need to protect your dd at all costs from this man, even if it means hurting your mum. You have to use paid childcare as I would not trust your mum to protect your dd, as she did not protect you, and she is not in an emotional position to protect your dd from him. Why would you leave her in this abusive environment. Either she comes to you to do childcare or not at all, no compromise on your dd part.

And, as someone working in Child Protection, who frequently encounters mothers who can't see clearly how enmeshed they are with family members who are abusive, I really wish I felt confident of your clarity in putting your child's needs first

As a CP professional, it's perhaps illuminating that you feel that way Evidencebased ... I guess we can only hope OP reads your post

Your mum needs to do the Freedom Programme. Show her the link so she can find a course near her to go to. It's important to GO to the course imo, not just read about it. She won't be forced to leave her abuser.

Also she needs to read Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Essential reading for your mum.

Your dd is not responsible for your mum's happiness, nor are you, you cannot compromise your dd mental health and well being to keep your mum happy and not hurt her, which is what you are asking here. It is quite obvious what you should do. But because your emeshed in this situation and are under (FOG-fear,oblication,guilt).

Sorry to be harsh but your mum allowed your dad to be verbally and physically abusive to you as a child.

I wouldn't leave my children with either of them ever.

This 100%.

Your job is to care for and protect your daughter. Don't let her down like your mum let you down. Please.

You need to realise that your role as a mother is FAR more important than your role as a daughter.

Your mother is an adult woman who made her own choices. Your daughter is a vulnerable baby who needs you to protect her. She does not exist to give your mother a reason to live. She is her own unique self and needs to be protected from toxic people.

Tip-toeing around your father and placating him all his life has had absolutely no effect at all. As a strategy it was useless and resulted in a lot of damage to your family. He is still an abusive man who cannot control himself. Do you really want your daughter to be stuck trying to placate grandad? Or did you have some sort of fantasy that he would fall in love with the little baby and transform because of her? Lose that. You were an enchanting little baby once upon a time and it had no effect at all.

Tell your mother that you cannot use her for childcare because of your father's abusive, unpredictable nature and her inability to protect and support any children in his vicinity. If they are very lucky you will support a grandparent relationship with your dd that will never involve your father being alone with her or any other children.

You aren't choosing this - he and she chose this when they chose to live and relate they way they have. Their choice - not yours. What did they think would happen? Another child left with them to be kicked when answering back and witness explosive outbursts?

I appreciate that this will be hard for you but you have no choice.

You do have a reversed sense of responsibility.

You are not responsible for your mothers choices
You keep rescuing her as you would small child

You need to put your DD first above all else. This is what mothers do.

it will be so hard for me to be the one contributing to her unhappiness.
You are not responsible for your mothers happiness or unhappiness. Your mother has made her own choices and they included being blind to the abuse you have suffered, and using you as a shield against her violent partner.
Its time to to become an adult and detach from them.

You are a parent, put your children first.

many people find that after they have DC, that's when they realise how bad their own childhood was and need help to process that.

This is so true. Now that I have my own dds, I understand much of the motivation for my mother's behavior. But thanks to years of counseling I have made real strides towards changing my instictive reactions - which are those I learned from my family in childhood. It is an incredibly hard cycle to break, almost impossible without outside help if you are still enmeshed.

I will never forget looking at my sweet little two year old and hearing my mother's voice come out of my mouth as I berated her for being stupid. I hated myself and have spent years trying not to damage my children in the same way I was.

Therapy is not an admission of weakness, it is one of the strongest, hardest most powerful declarations of love for your daughter you can make. Please seek it NOW.

you wo9uld have to move away to get cc so as not to upset her?

read that over and over it doesnt sound right does it

shes not your resonsibility your daughter is

@Haahhpy Needing counseling doesn't indicate one has a mental health 'problem'. Sometimes we just can't see the forest for the trees and need someone to listen with a neutral ear. To offer another perspective on things we consider 'the way it is'. And to help us break bad habits and adjust to a better way of reasoning or thinking about things.

Sorry but you are going to have to toughen up, seeing you put in writing that you are incapable of hurting your Mum by not allowing them to mind your daughter makes me want to reach through the computer and shake some sense in to you.

This is what you actually wrote "I would rather sacrifice my daughter to be raised in the same kind of hell that I was raised in instead of hurting my Mum" Shame on you!

Here is your chance to break this abusive cycle that your father has put the rest of your family through yet you don't want to do it. If you put your daughter in to their hands knowing what is going to happen then you (and your partner if you have one) should not be having children, children are a blessing to your family, not a pawn that is passed around to keep your family happy. Do what you know you need to to protect your child, to raise her in a happy, loving home.

Your Mum sound like a reasonable person, I would explain to her your reasons, I am sure she may be hurt but understand, as for your Dad I would just tell him you have decided to place her elsewhere or not return to work so early etc.

I have not read through the whole post so you may have changed your view based on what others have said and I may have missed it, my response is to your original post only.

Is there a way to set in place some 'rules' before the care starts, and i think it should be in your home - (your home, your child, your rules).

You've mentioned that you father can be amicable for months at a time and that you can stand your ground with him when he's not.

i.e you would love for your parents to come to your home and look after baby, but you will not allow your dads 'bad side' in your home because you want baby to grow up seeing the best side of him.
If he has a bad day/week/month etc, he can stay away, he's not welcome in your home with baby until you have decided it's OK?

We all have bad days, (and with MH issues they can be extreme) ideally if he can recognize when he is/isn't a nice person to be around he can say - I'm not OK today - and then have time on his own to do whatever it his that brings him back to reality.

i.e you would love for your parents to come to your home and look after baby, but you will not allow your dads 'bad side' in your home because you want baby to grow up seeing the best side of him.

In all fairness, Hollywoods, isn't it very clear that the OP and her mother have already tried to set some rule for her father and they have failed spectacularly. I'm sure her mother isn't a bad woman. I'm sure she loved her own babies. She probably told her husband that he couldn't erupt like he did around them. But he did. And then kicked his own daughter hard and was verbally abusive to her.

Why on earth does anyone think this man and woman should mind a small baby? If you were interviewing a childminder and her reference described her husband who would be in the home as the OP describes her father, would you hire her and set a few rules?

My experience in life is that when people get older they stay themselves - except more so. his temper will be shorter, his fuse shorter, his explosions bigger. small babies and toddlers are stressful, even for those who love them.

Setting rules didn't work in the past and won't work now. When you chose to live like this as the OP's mother and father did, you have to take the consequences.

Incapable of hurting your mum but capable of leaving your child with someone who has failed to protect her own children and would probably fail to protect her grand daughter? Right...

My mil let my step fil in law sexually assault me as a teen, therefore she has forfeited all rights to look after my kids and I wouldn't trust her with a pet fish.

Please don't listen to posters saying it might be ok for your Mum to look after your child,
if it was only in your home,
if it was a good day for dad.

Be crystal clear. YOU must always be present .Always.
Or better still, the child's father.

Your parents function as a distorted pair. They are both involved. In emotional child abuse, and physical child abuse/knowingly failing to protect a child from physical abuse.

Neither is capable of putting a child's needs first. They had years to prove that to you.

This is a CP issue. Don't fail your child.

Oo this has red warning signs all over it. I wouldn't leave the baby there, no way. Tbh I would try to persuade mum to leave him, maybe she really wants to, deep down. And then maybe she could stay with you?

DGPs as majority childcare providers can be fraught with unexpected problems even with good will on all sides. I'd avoid it anyway beyond maybe a day a week unless its the only option - keep the DGP relationships about fun and spoiling rather than a situation where you need to be able to set requirements adn they need to be happy fitting in with them.

In your particular case its out of the question. Including DM in your own home because you cannot trust that DF won't force DM/manipulate the situation.

It's honestly hard for me to comprehend that people don't feel responsible for the happiness of their loved ones though?

I agree with a PP suggesting you might be the more damaged because your DB has removed himself from the arena of risk. We are socialised as girls to comply, to tolerate, to be nice, to be helpful. You are not responsible for your DM's happiness or her choices in this situation. You can only be responsible for your own decisions, not those of others.

I do think you should get some kind of counseling to discuss your own experiences and when you are ready discuss with DM why you cannot use the offer of childcare. One of the commonest ages for women initiating divorce is 60s/50s - it is not too late for DM to break out and have a life of her own. Telling her why you cannot leave DD with them may be the impetus she needs but talk through your own experiences first.

pallisers - Sorry, I may have mis-read.
My understanding was that the mother had set rules in the past and these hadn't resolved anything, but that mum was afraid, so could be a bit of a pushover in those moments, OP was able to stand her ground (but wasn't able to as a child).

In my, admittedly very wish-full thinking, and my no means an expert opinion - scenario, it would be OP setting the rules and standing her ground.

I absolutely don't think that the emotionally and physically abusive man should be looking after baby, just a suggestion if there was a way for his nasty side to be treated separately from the side who loves kids and was very excited etc.
(and of course, that is assuming that it can be recognized before it happens, and that the rules are respected, ground is held, any mental health development was dealt with appropriately by medical professional etc)

You both need counselling, you and your mum. I'm so sorry you had such a horrible dad, but be under no illusion, he will hurt your dd one way or another and will quite possibly hurt her physically too.

Your mum is a grown up and responsible for her own health and happiness. You father has taken away her sense of self, particularly the idea that she is worth anything. She's unlikely to leave him because of that; and that's why she needs counselling. She needs to believe in herself and her ability to make her decisions, take the consequences, her ability to live without your dad.

Good luck to you all.