Which country is that?

When I lived in Australia my host had pneumonia. The Doctor came out & his first question was not "she needs to be in hospital" but "can you afford it?". I've never forgotten it.
We value our free healthcare. The massive amount of mismanagement we tend to blame on decades of political interference.

I think people are scared of a health insurance based set up where only the wealthy can afford treatment. I agree that it should not be beyond criticism.

I can't explain it. You'll be jumped on for even suggesting the nhs needs improvement.

I also can't explain why people use the American system as an example of the only alternative.

A) what country is that I really can’t think of one

B) the NHS is not beyond criticism however having ended up in A&E in Hong Kong and the states and in HK in particular not being transferred out of a&e till a colleague had got hold of my insurance documents was ridiculous. I was on a drip and barely conscious.

fc301 what an odd thing for a doctor to say in Australia. All Australians get their health care free ( yes I know, taxpayer funded but the patient doesn't pay anything for hospital treatment). So no doctor would ever ask a patient "can you afford it"unless they had specifically said they wanted to go to a private hospital, or unless they were not an Australian citizen.

I also can't explain why people use the American system as an example of the only alternative.

Because in the current political context, if we lose the NHS the American system is what we will get instead. That is what people are scared of.

I mean, it is almost as if people feel that someone very nice and kind has given the English people the free health service, and they should be eternally grateful and not mention its shortcomings or it will be taken away

The National Health Service is for UK citizens, not just English people.

Burdie correct. UK citizen

The problem with league tables trying to rank different healthcare systems is that there's no single, objective measure by which to compare them. So the wikipedia article linked in the OP looks at a single outcome for each of six specific conditions. So you can't really use the data to say "Country X has an overall better healthcare system than country Y"; you can only use it to say "Country X has better 5-year survival rates for cervical cancer than country Y", which is of limited usefulness on its own.
There are other studies looking at different outcomes that have found the NHS to be one of the best in the world. For example in this report the UK ranks first. Equally, other very specific measures of quality could be cherrypicked like in the Wikipedia article (though I realise those aren't completely arbitrary) to show the NHS in a very good light.
For individuals, whether they perceive the NHS in a positive or negative light will depend on how much value they attribute to different elements of healthcare. So if equitable access to care is very important to you, then you're more likely to overlook some of the NHS's failings and end up with a generally favourable view of the system as a whole. But if the ability to choose your doctor is very important to you, then the reverse might be true.
There is gross inefficiency in the NHS and a lot of the money gets tied up in bureaucracy, pharmaceutical patent law, and 'busywork'. I don't think it should be considered beyond rebuke, and I haven't come across many people who would disagree. But people value it on the whole because they compare it to countries like the US where there is massive inequality and, for some socioeconomic groups / in some areas of healthcare, mortality rates on a par with those of "third-world" countries.

OP what do you mean "English"???

The NHS isn't English, nor are its members.

It is British, and the members are British.

I agree. I'm very glad I had my daughter while living in NZ, and not the UK. When I was first pregnant I was given a list of midwives, some independent, some affiliated too a hospital, and was able to select my own lead maternity carer (could have chosen a GP if I could find one locally who did maternity care, out am obstetrician of I wanted to pay out had a high risk pregnancy). I effectively interviewed 3 or 4 of them until I found one whom I got on with and felt was on the same wavelength as me regarding medical interventions etc. As she lived quite near me, all my ante natal care took place in my home, over a cup of tea. About 3 weeks before my due date her partner came to meet me too, just in case my midwife wasn't available when I went into labour. When I did go into labour my midwife came to my home, assessed, and suggested it might be a good idea to head to hospital. In the end it was a long labour, and she was very apologetic that she had to go home to sleep, passing my care onto a hospital midwife, before baby was born. I went home a few hours after the birth, and my midwife called by the following day - on her day off - to meet the baby. She continued to visit for 6 weeks, most days the first week, dropping to once a week for the last few. All care from the same person. Excellent support with breastfeeding. Never felt preached to or told what to do, but rather informed and supported in making choices. All completely free. A million times better than the experiences of contemporaries in the UK.

I couldn't agree more, OP. In my opinion, the NHS is absolutely atrocious. I say this as someone who lives abroad and sees first hand how a national health system should be run.

I live in a European country and there is a vast difference between waiting times for appointments - always within 2 days - ease of referral and waiting times for specialists and procedures. It's like night and day. Here women make an annual appointment with the gynaecologist for a smear test and breast check.

I also can't explain why people use the American system as an example of the only alternative.

Me neither. Do people not realise that the NHS is not free, it's paid for by our taxes just like in many other countries that are NOT the United States, and in those countries their NHS is vastly better than in the UK? It's not all or nothing!

People often say the doctors and nurses at such and such a hospital were brilliant when they needed treatment. Of course, some medical staff are exceptional, the issue is that it is being mismanaged and, as a result, is extremely stretched. How can anyone justify waiting times of weeks for a GP appointment? Or months for an urgent op?

When I lived in Australia my host had pneumonia. The Doctor came out & his first question was not "she needs to be in hospital" but "can you afford it?". I've never forgotten it.

That must have been quite a long time ago, as we’ve had universal health care for over 30 years in Australia.

Are you specifically calling out the English? Or do you mean British people?

The NHS, for all its many faults and failings is something of a sacred cow in the U.K. Politicians of left and right sanctify it in their speeches, then use it as a football to score points against their opponents.

The NHS too big, much too bureaucratic, too inflexible and far too driven by politically imposed ‘targets’ rather than the needs of its customers, the patients. When mistakes are made, a culture of secrecy, denial and blame prevents patients getting the help they need. Senior doctors and trade unions have far too much power, while ordinary staff do their best in difficult situations. Like any public sector organisation, the NHS will cut services before it cuts its own bureaucracy.

Many European countries have better insurance-based systems which combine state and private sector provision underpinned by government support for those who need it. Any suggestion that the U.K. should move towards emulating the successful aspects of such systems which work well is always shouted down by accusations of ‘privatisation’, as if this were a swear word and the awful American system was the only alternative.

When I lived in Australia my host had pneumonia. The Doctor came out & his first question was not "she needs to be in hospital" but "can you afford it?". I've never forgotten it.

But Australia has a free public hospital system. Are you sure about this?

When I lived in Australia my host had pneumonia. The Doctor came out & his first question was not "she needs to be in hospital" but "can you afford it?". I've never forgotten it

the NHS is not beyond criticism however having ended up in A&E in Hong Kong and the states and in HK in particular not being transferred out of a&e till a colleague had got hold of my insurance documents was ridiculous

Two good examples of PP's point that people seem to think the choice is between the British public health system, and almost no public health system.

In my experience a lot of British people really believe that the UK is one of the only countries with a good(ish) public health system.

Because in the current political context, if we lose the NHS the American system is what we will get instead. That is what people are scared of

But OP is talking about the right to demand a better health service, not a desire to get rid of it entirely.

I appreciate the NHS.

As pp when I lived in Oz, they wanted to know if I had cover etc, as soon as I said BUPA they were all over me like a rash. They wheeled me to a private room and may as well have wiped my arse for me.
I always had the habit of leaving the doctors surgery without handing over my Visa card. Well, 37 years of using the NHS 🤷🏼‍♀️

Absolutely it should be criticized because lives depend on it and you all pay for it. It is inevitable that it will go away for most people one day, there's absolutely no way it can cover everyone for free forever. Sad but true.

The NHS is a black hole where money goes with out impovements and whinging staff who don't giva a shit.

When I lived in Australia my host had pneumonia. The Doctor came out & his first question was not "she needs to be in hospital" but "can you afford it?". I've never forgotten it.

??????
I live in Australia and worked in the health system here for nearly 30 years and have never heard such a thing. Do you have the right country?

There is a public system in Australia that would completely cover treatment for pneumonia.

What it would NOT cover is if your host:

• did not qualify for the public system i.e. was not a citizen, on a qualifying visa or from a country with a reciprocal agreement (you have to register when you arrive for the latter scenario's, citizens are registered at birth)

• your host would also not be covered if they also wanted a cosmetic nose or boob job while being treated for pneumonia for example.

I agree with you OP. I've personally gotten to the point with the NHS where I have now become "pushy and demanding" just to get care, I don't even care anymore if I'm seen as a jobs worth, because at least I'm the jobs worth getting seen in a timely manner, the medication I needed and people communicating with me about what's going on when I'm sat in a ward pre and post operation.

The NHS is broken, not fit for purpose and needs to be torn apart and a fresh start applied. Less fat cats with manager titles soaking in absurd pay, more money for front line services and staff and less beurocratic red tape! It will never happen though.

I actively now try and avoid the NHS unless it's an "emergency", I just haven't got the energy for the constant battles, I also find the majority of practitioners and staff in my local hospital incompetent so that puts me off going also!

Not just the English - I suspect you're using English to mean British?

I've a thread running elsewhere regarding the the misogyny within medicine (which is a worldwide issue but definitely a problem in the nhs particularly as certain services within the nhs require a GP referral - in particular gynaecology - making GPS gatekeepers of these services a role they get wrong far more than is acceptable imo).

As to why we fear losing it? Because we know that disorganised as it currently is (it certainly isn't a NATIONAL health service at the moment) it COULD be worse and the worse we most fear is an American style system.

I have friends and family in USA, some Brits who emigrated some who were born there and they envy the nhs.

The reason we think this is a valid fear? Well I can only speak for myself of course but I think many think similarly - is because the very govt ministers who've recently been involved in administering our health system have been going on "fact finding" visits to healthcare companies in the USA (but not to my knowledge elsewhere) and also have been revealed to either have business interests themselves or close family members do in those healthcare companies.

As someone with serious mental health issues who is unable to work and therefore already on a damn tight budget, who's seen TERRIFYING reports on how American health insurance companies are reluctant to cover mental illness let alone for many years, who look really hard for loopholes to avoid paying out in particular for mental illness and gynaecology issues, who knows how much my essential meds cost and couldn't afford to pay for them... It's a very real fear for me.

But absolutely the nhs could be run better, there was a recent thread discussing what improvements needed to be made and where savings could be made - but as you rightly say, other countries offer better services for less cost.

I've also lived overseas and experienced different systems to a degree (nhs would have paid them for my care as not a citizen) but I knew citizens, and I also have several friends living in other European countries who have explained to me how it works in the European systems and they're not as simple as the nhs in terms of how payment is obtained but they're better I think than American and also what I've heard of Australian and New Zealand and even in Canada where again mental health isn't covered by the public system.

"When mistakes are made, a culture of secrecy, denial and blame prevents patients getting the help they need." While I agree with this it's a problem in other countries too, mainly due to fear of being sued and losing the right to practice. And of course bad practitioners SHOULD lose their right to practice it's the reporting systems that need sorted! The FACT that if you DARE complain about a GP or even in some cases just challenge their decisions can and does result in patients being left without a GP - effectively blacklisted - is absolutely outrageous and needs to be completely changed.

I was hospitalized in 2014 in Amsterdam. They came in my room every few days to get my credit card to charge thousands of euros. After paying the limit they could charge after being there 10 days I was conveniently discharged after being told they were afraid I’d end up sicker if I stayed! Awful experience having been treated according to their protocol which was also included an iv antibiotic that my infection was resistant too. Got better after making it back home and given proper one. I’m not even sure I needed hospitalization. We should be happy with the NHS.