AIBU to not understand the english attitude towards the NHS?

[EggplantsForever]

Every time someone criticises the NHS, every time someone asks for better health service, or to have some not absolutely vital procedure (like IVF) covered, or to be referred to a specialist there is a barrage of voices here calling them "ungrateful", proclaiming that "the NHS is on it's knees", etc.

I just find it so peculiarly English and I have very hard time understanding it! Perhaps you can explain?

I mean, it is almost as if people feel that someone very nice and kind has given the English people the free health service, and they should be eternally grateful and not mention its shortcomings or it will be taken away. But the NHS is in fact paid by your own taxes! It belongs to you. And you have full right to criticise it and expect it to work just as well as other free healthcare systems in the world. Which it doesn't. It actually compares pretty badly even to the countries that spend less money per capita on health. I have a feeling it is actually badly mismanaged.

For example, look at this table en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare
UK is at the bottom at most of them, below Portugal/Spain, Israel, and Slovenia who spend significantly less money on healthcare.

From my personal experience, having lived in a country with free healthcare, you could go to a gynaecologist without referral (and women were advised to see one for a yearly check up). Skin specialist did not require referral either. Referral to any other specialist took me on average two weeks. IVF was available to everyone for free. The list of cancer drugs included drugs that are not funded in the UK. etc And people still routinely complained about their healthcare. Which they had full right to do, because it was funded by their own taxes.

So I am just not sure why is everyone so afraid to criticise the NHS? It is actually one of UK's biggest problems. And why does everyone eternally fear that it will be "taken away"?

The NHS was an absolute godsend when a member of my family was seriously ill last year. We are SO lucky to have it. We all need all need to be willing to pay more towards it.

Personally I think people love the NHS because we’re in all it together. It’s the ultimate socialist leveller, giving us a sense of camaraderie that we enjoy in the U.K.

the vast majority of people in the U.K. are born and die in the NHS. Regardless of wealth or background They scoop you up when you’re broken and they look after you.

They’re the ones who airlift you from your car crash, who stop you bleeding to death, who save your eyesight after an industrial accident, who help you walk again after you break your back.

Yes it romanticised and it doesn’t always work. But it’s not often you can rely on something you don’t pay for (out of your taxes funds) to keep you alive and healthy.

Because unfortunately the Tories are slyly dismantling and selling off the NHS to its friends as you type and any criticism is used as an excuse to further this. That's my personal reason for not criticising it too much... that and without it certain family members would be dead.

[Edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

Just to add to the Aussie side of things, the system here seems to me to be much better than both the UK and Irish systems. While you can of course go private, and are strongly encouraged by the tax system to do so if you earn over a certain amount, the public system is exemplary. I have a brand new surgery at the end of my street, last time I went I booked online and got an appointment half an hour later. The surgery is a family run affair run by a whole family from Birmingham, the daughter is the doc and her mum and dad run the reception desk (and cuddle fractious babies ). The doc told me she was delighted to escape the NHS.

As for in patient treatment, my son had a burst appendix not long after we moved here. The only shocker was having to pay for the ambulance, luckily we were clued up and had taken out ambo cover. The treatment and hospital were fantastic. I've mentioned this before on here, but the entire top floor of the children's hospital had been turned into a free games arcade and basketball court. They also had a teenagers den with a dj set up and god knows what else. Each floor had a parent's kitchen, they even brought me (the patient's mum) meals if I wanted them. It was nothing at all like my experience of the NHS, which is a wonderful thing indeed, but woefully underfunded IMO.

Oh forgot to add, my surgery bulk bills too, so I don't pay to see my doc, and my son's inpatient treatment was free too.

fc301 Your posts make no sense to me, either. As a British citizen, your host was entitled to reciprocal Medicare in Australia which would definitely have covered hospitalisation.

I currently live in Australia and have had a baby here recently which was completely covered by reciprocal Medicare. I didn’t pay a cent. The quality of care was excellent. I choose to see a GP who charges a fee above the Medicare allowance (about £30 per appointment). I’m happy to pay that because I’m always able to get an appointment on the same day and I like the continuity of seeing the same doctor. but if I couldn’t, or didn’t want to, pay a fee I could go to one if the GPs who don’t charge.

The system here is brilliant imo.

adayatthebeach
That was an expensive lesson. As a European citizen you should have taken an EHIC at the very least!

ID81241
Who’s Asher?

As others have pointed out op it isn’t the English.

Which country did you live in with this amazing totally free healthcare? Having lived in a few European ones, their systems seem much better. Those that can pay an additional amount for which there is health insurance.

@Houseonthelake, perhaps the European country you live in spends a higher percentage of its GDP on healthcare? Many European countries spend around 10.5%, UK only 8.5%

also can't explain why people use the American system as an example of the only alternative. “Because in the current political context, if we lose the NHS the American system is what we will get instead. That is what people are scared of.

This with brass knobs on. Most non UK European models are still not for profit model as US is.

I've lived in Spain and seen the NHS equivalent there. It's interesting, the standards and requirements for different things. For example, salaries for Doctors and Surgeons are capped much lower, there's more emphasis on doing it because you are passionate. Also, some of the hospitals are a bit run down, not unusable just more so than England in my opinion. A surgeon I met told me he was glad of this, they prioritise the care not the aesthetics. It's all sort of basic but clean and functional. I love the NHS though, it was amazing when I had my baby, I just think they need a bit more common sense in how the budget is spent sometimes.

By the way, completely agree with caprisunorange

I have found the NZ system to be pretty shit tbh and would much prefer the NHS. in NZ my DD has epilepsy, took her 6 months to be diagnosed and only saw a neurologist because she had a severe reaction from the medication the GP prescribed. Then she had a series of seizures recently and spent 7 hours in A&E before seeing a doctor, took more hours to find a bed and ended up sharing with a high dependency patio :( Not to mention the $100 bill for the ambulance!

Mental health support is disgusting low, hence we have the highest suicide rate in the OECD

Shaft where was that? in my experience midwifery care in NZ is great if your in the cities but shit in rural areas. I had a high risk birth (back in the 90s admittedly) so I had to have an induction two hours from home in Invercargill because it was my nearest hospital to facilitate my brith, so I had totally different midwife and I ended up with an EMCS (I would have died if I didn't have my induction in Invercargill). I also know others (in Central / lower South Island) that have crap births because of lack of facilities / midwives.

When I lived in Australia my host had pneumonia. The Doctor came out & his first question was not "she needs to be in hospital" but "can you afford it?". I've never forgotten it

I have never had an Australian health care professional ask if I can afford something, or even bring money/payment up. As a routine, the admin staff will ask if you have private health care cover so they know whether to bill the insurance company or Medicare/government, but either way, it has never affected the level of service/care of anyone I know.

I had pneumonia years ago. The only thing my GP was interested in was how quickly I could get to hospital. No mention of fees (my entire stay was covered under Medicare anyway). Why would there be?

Have you mixed up America with Australia, or was your host in the very, very, small category of people who aren't entitled to Medicare? Even then, I can't imagine the Dr asking that question. They'd likely be more interested in making sure the person gets proper medical attention than the ins and outs of whether they qualify for Medicare.

The National Health Service is for UK citizens, not just English people.

Not really. I'm a U.K citizen but because I live abroad I am not entitled to free NHS treatment, which is how it should be.

I've lived in the U.S for over 45 years and the healthcare is top notch here, you just have to have insurance. If you don't have insurance they will still treat you in the hospital, it's the law. If you have no insurance and no assets for them to go after then the hospital eats the bill and the rest of us have to pay for it in high fees.

We have health insurance and this summer my husband was in a very bad accident and had to be air lifted to a hospital 80 miles away. We had air ambulance insurance, besides the regular health insurance, so we were okay financially.

The care here is great I should know because I've had about 12 operations here in the U.S. I don't need referrals and most doctors offices (surgeries) have a lab in them, or in the same building. Same with MRI's, they are easier to access. I know in England I had to go to the hospital to have a simple blood test.

I'm starting on medicare now because I've turned 65, we'll see how that works.

To all of you correcting the Lassie's "English" to "British",

a) can you imagine that perhaps there is an explanation for why she does that, like I don't know perhaps the fact that English isn't her first language and lots of foreign languages use British and English interchangeably

b) since she's probably got that point by now, why don't you think about the question she asked, or do you feel like the mistake she made somehow invalidates her question? I don't, I'm Scottish but I lived in England for about 15 years and I'd say the Scottish and English NHS were about as crap as each other.

OP I think the reason people defend the NHS so hard is that they don't know any better. The only systems anyone really knows much about in the UK are ones from other English speaking countries particularly the US, so they make this false dichotomy where if you don't put up with the NHS you get full privatisation. What's funny is that they make the same argument in the US against socialised healthcare (you don't want to end up with the NHS where you have to wait for cancer treatment and you can't see a specialist if your GP says no"). The worst healthcare system in the developed world fighting it out with the other worst healthcare system in the developed world.

“OP I think the reason people defend the NHS so hard is that they don't know any better. The only systems anyone really knows much about in the UK are ones from other English speaking countries particularly the US, so they make this false dichotomy where if you don't put up with the NHS you get full privatisation”.

I agree with this. Australia has a fully functional public hospital system and a fully functional private system. We have the advantages charolais mentioned of easy accessibility to labs and radiology including MRIs with some healthy competition between private providers improving efficiency. Some lab tests and xrays are completely paid for by the government.

While the benefits of free health care are irrefutable it’s not clear to me how the NHS is better than other countries’ versions of universal health care.

I should clarify that some tests done in private are paid for by the government

“Personally I think people love the NHS because we’re in all it together.”

Apart from those people who pay for private healthcare!

I’m in NZ and it’s not perfect here, you pay to see the gp as an adult but you get a reduced rate if you have a community services card (on a benefit or low income). Hospital and operations are free, it’s a waiting list unless urgent. You can also show up with a&e with a minor ailment and get free treatment, you will just wait a long time to be seen.

I think most people have a fondness for the NHS and their staff from personal experience.
A few years ago I was very ill, young (silly) & on my own I drove to A&E, collapsed in the doorway.
When I came round two days later, they had worked out what was wrong, operated to remove a twisted & necrotic ovarian cyst because there was no time to wait, without knowing who I was, and with no form of consent. Someone had shifted my car from the ambulance bay, turned off the lights, locked it and brought the key back, called the police, had them track down my details and inform my family where I was and what had happened.
I’ve experienced urgent healthcare in the US, Israel and Switzerland and I’m absolutely sure I would have been left on the street in all three places.
The nhs is a long way from perfect but constructive support is a lot more helpful than criticism.

People do criticise the NHS. But there is a big distinction between saying “the NHS isn’t working which proves nationalised healthcare doesn’t work” (incorrect) and “the NHS is an amazing institution and it is devastating that the government has allowed it to decline in this way” (the truth IMO).

You have to pay for the ambulance alwayscrashing? It’s not really comparing like for like is it?

I'm guessing the OP is from Italy as what she describes corresponds to my personal experience of the Italian health system. There are a lot of problems too though. However, I agree with the general point: we should be demanding a better health system and not putting up with mismanagement and huge wastes of money. That doesn't mean we don't support it - but it is definitely not perfect.

Because realistically, unless you are a very high earner and pay huge amounts of NI and tax, you probabaly do not pay for the NHS. Some operations and treatments cost tens of thousands. I’ve had three children and four operations plus many other random trips to A&E and my son is under the care of an amazing multi-disciplinary team at one of London’s top heart hospitals. I doubt I’ve paid for all of that in my taxes so I am very very grateful.