AIBU to not understand the english attitude towards the NHS?

[EggplantsForever]

Every time someone criticises the NHS, every time someone asks for better health service, or to have some not absolutely vital procedure (like IVF) covered, or to be referred to a specialist there is a barrage of voices here calling them "ungrateful", proclaiming that "the NHS is on it's knees", etc.

I just find it so peculiarly English and I have very hard time understanding it! Perhaps you can explain?

I mean, it is almost as if people feel that someone very nice and kind has given the English people the free health service, and they should be eternally grateful and not mention its shortcomings or it will be taken away. But the NHS is in fact paid by your own taxes! It belongs to you. And you have full right to criticise it and expect it to work just as well as other free healthcare systems in the world. Which it doesn't. It actually compares pretty badly even to the countries that spend less money per capita on health. I have a feeling it is actually badly mismanaged.

For example, look at this table en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare
UK is at the bottom at most of them, below Portugal/Spain, Israel, and Slovenia who spend significantly less money on healthcare.

From my personal experience, having lived in a country with free healthcare, you could go to a gynaecologist without referral (and women were advised to see one for a yearly check up). Skin specialist did not require referral either. Referral to any other specialist took me on average two weeks. IVF was available to everyone for free. The list of cancer drugs included drugs that are not funded in the UK. etc And people still routinely complained about their healthcare. Which they had full right to do, because it was funded by their own taxes.

So I am just not sure why is everyone so afraid to criticise the NHS? It is actually one of UK's biggest problems. And why does everyone eternally fear that it will be "taken away"?

I agree with you OP.

Also, this thread demonstrates the level of misinformation about other countries’ healthcare systems that underpins a lot of discourse about the NHS. The comment about Australia is a case in point - Australia actually has excellent universal healthcare provided via a hybrid public/private system. And it’s much better in terms of health outcomes than the NHS.

I think there’s a real British arrogance/xenophobia to it. ‘The NHS is the envy of the world, Johnny Foreigner doesn’t know how to deliver healthcare, gosh.’

The NHS was incredible and groundbreaking in 1948. It’s now 2018, and it’s not fit for purpose. The population’s much larger and has far more complex needs. Most of the rest of the developed world has moved on and has overtaken us - we’ve been left behind in our little colonial rut.

Some things work in the Italian health system, but a lot more need cash bribes to move things along or get to the best doctors (like everything in Italy....please note this is not a criticism...just a reality of a different way of functioning).

I'm so 50/50 on the NHS.

I really do appreciate the fact that if we broke an arm we could walk into a hospital, get an operation and leave without spending a penny. Yes it may take some wait time but compared to the US, they would receive a hefty bill of around 10K for such a visit. So, grateful for that.

However, there is sooooo much room for improvement, mainly, I think, on the services side, such as access to mental health specialists within a timely manor. When people are being given wait times of over 6 months for specialist appointments, it is really frustrating and often leads to further illnesses caused by stress.

Realistically the NHS is stretched and until they find a way to provide it more funding, wait times will always be a bloody nightmare.

@snowymountains I was in Auckland, so no doubt much better than many other parts of the country.
I found the contrast with the care I received and that which friends here received striking. As a healthy, young women I found the system great (not just maternity care) and since returning to UK have been stuck in particular by the rather patronising 'dr knows best' attitude in the UK.
That said, I don't doubt that if seriously ill the NHS would win hands down over NZ.

Could I add that my children and I have experienced the free at the point of delivery healthcare in England and in the USA over a period of many years in both countries and I would choose the care I got in the USA at every juncture. The care we received has ranged from the littlest thing to severe medical and mental health treatment, and from the bog standard to the rare genetic disease. The NHS is broken and there seems to be little understanding or acknowledgement of that amongst the British.

“That said, I don't doubt that if seriously ill the NHS would win hands down over NZ.”

Why do you say this? Genuinely curious. NZ has emergency physicians, intensivists and teaching hospitals.

OpinionCat unfortunately part of your statement is not true: "you could walk into a hospital, get an operation" That truly depends on the post code lottery. I have experienced walking into a hospital in NorthWest London and almost not getting the necessary operation because there were no surgeons available (luckily, literally as we were walking out the door 6 hours after arriving by ambulance, a surgeon walked in and a nurse grabbed him to give my exH 50 stitches). Or the 5 hours that I had to for a surgeon to be available to do an emergency cs on me...that's 5 hours after I had been told that my baby's heart was failing and he had to come out right away. This was in the same hospital where the future Kings of England are being born.

sorry make that *wait for a surgeon

What free at delivery is there in the US?

@SofiaAmes my point is that you get these incredibly expensive surgeries for free whereas in other countries you would be charged thousands.

For example my midwife told me a c section costs around 10k. I don't fancy that bill.

I think the problem with the NHS is political. It should be taken away from government and be independent and independently accountable. At the moment you have crazy stuff going on with cuts and cuts and cuts while more and more people access it (rightfully, personally I believe all humans should have access to good healthcare throughout their lives as a human right), trainee nurses are expected to pay more for their training than they'll ever make back, junior doctors are treated so poorly they had to strike, nurses are so badly paid they are having to use food banks... and then you get postcode lotteries for some treatments, such as IVF (which I think is necessary, btw). It's a mess of government's making, all governments - Blair opened the door a crack for privatization, the Tories are pushing it open with a barge-pole (all in the name of austerity, all because people believe it when The Sun or The Daily Mail print articles about so called benefit scroungers getting operations on the NHS while the middle class languish in a hospital corridor on Xmas eve). It shouldn't be political. It needs reforming. It needs to be run by the people, for the people not by people with an agenda of their own.

I agree to an extent OP. People always cite the US as to what the alternative is but there are dozens of countries who have functioning health systems that are neither extreme.

But you do need to say where this country is with the amazing free system.

Another goady anti-British/English post.

@fc301- no idea when or where that was. Australian system is free healthcare, and free for reciprocal countries- the UK being one of them. And provides more services, quicker than the UK does. They still do (free) housecalls overnight, and you can pay for a GP as an adult, up to $50 but get at least $50 back immediately through Medicare. Or juts go to a bulk billing GP and pay nothing. I've found Australian healthcare is much more 'free' and with much larger resources than the UK. And been working here for 15 years.

Are you specifically calling out the English? Or do you mean British people?

^ this.

Or is is another 'lets have a pop at the English thread' considering the OP hasn't been back.....

And Australia does expect you to have private cover if you earn a certain amount- but if not you don't. When you activate private insurance in Australia, it gains you nothing, but gives the hospital funding. Or you can go to a private hospital and get treated for non emergency things quicker. It seems a much better system!

I see the OP hasn't returned to tell us where her wonderful country is ....

Light the blue touch-paper and stand well back.

Are you specifically calling out the English? Or do you mean British people?

It’s interesting that when it’s seen as a negative issue, the English are very quick to explain Britain/the UK to everybody.

FFS it’s free at the point of use which is why people fear it will be taken away; we are extremely lucky that your first thought when falling ill (or even having good news such as being pregnant) isn’t whether you can afford it or not. Of course there are issues, as there are in any healthcare system, privately paid for or the NHS. People should criticise and report wrongdoings, but similarly when people say the NHS in its entirety sucks like sweeping a brush over anything is ridiculous. Having worked as a dispenser medications for long term conditions are really expensive, some countries would refuse you insurance on that basis, here you won’t be charged.

It isn’t wonderful and untouchable, it definitely needs to evolve with the times to streamline spending and adapt to the changing requirements of today. But if it was taken away and the best care preserved for the rich, people would definitely have more to complain about.

It’s interesting that when it’s seen as a negative issue, the English are very quick to explain Britain/the UK to everybody.

It's also interesting that the Scottish/Irish/welsh are very slow to explain it in similar circumstances.

I do criticise the NHS, but I am also scared of losing it so I understand those who say we shouldn't criticise.
There are plenty of private companies who want in on the NHS and it's something Trump would want access to if we were forced to do more deals with him after Brexit.
Some people say the Tories are deliberately running the NHS into the ground (it's devolved in Scotland and Wales, but the budget is still set by Westminster) so that they'll get public support for privatisation. When you've had years of not being able to get a GP appointment you end up thinking you wouldn't mind paying for it and it can go on from there..

It's worse in England than in Wales - some GPs in England are run by Virgin, but there has been some privatisation in Wales too, e.g. dialysis in the north.

"I’ve had three children and four operations plus many other random trips to A&E and my son is under the care of an amazing multi-disciplinary team at one of London’s top heart hospitals. I doubt I’ve paid for all of that in my taxes so I am very very grateful."

Ok, but not everyone has complex needs. So far I've not had an operation or had to stay in hospital, only GP appointments and a handful of specialist appointments. I think I've probably more than paid for it.
Of course, I don't know what will come with older age.

"It's also interesting that the Scottish/Irish/welsh are very slow to explain it in similar circumstances."

That's not really true. Scottish and Welsh people will explain the difference between Britain and England at every opportunity. Doesn't really matter if you're talking about a positive or a negative thing.

@Unicyclethief Yes in Australia you pay for an ambulance call out. Or you get ambo cover for about $10 a year. Personally I think the NHS should have a similar system, it would save them a fortune. Most people have ambo insurance as its so cheap. I don't see how that makes it not comparing like with like, its hardly a huge difference.

Unicyclethief In the USA anyone on Medicaid (low income) gets free at delivery medical care. Also, people on Medicare (over the age of 65 or disabled) get close to free at delivery medical care.
Access to Medicaid was greatly expanded as part of the Affordable Care Act.
OpinionCat you are not getting anything "for free"...you just aren't paying for it at the point of delivery. And frankly, I'd rather be paying 10K off for the rest of my life and have my child be alive than getting substandard care "for free."