To think I can't be dismissed for not following policies and procedures I was unaware of?

[Charlieandthechocolatecake]

I work in the care industry.

I have recently been suspended on full pay pending an investigation which I had a meeting about last week.

I cannot go into detail but it has now gone to the disciplinary stage.

I have been with the company for less than 2 years.

The reason for the disciplinary is that I didn't follow policy and procedure.

I emailed HR asap to let them known I didn't agree with the wording as it was only mentioned during the investigation meeting that I didn't follow this particular policy.

I have never been informed of this particular policy.

Can I still be dismissed?

I know this post is vague, I will answer any questions as long as I don't have to give out confidential or sensitive information.

Thank you.

Who had the responsibility to ensure you were informed of procedure? If it was up to you to inform yourself, then it's your fault, but if it was someone else's job to ensor that employees are informed of all policy and procedure then it's their fault.

Were you ever given a staff handbook or induction on the topic (eg fraud/money management) when you started?

As tripping said. My first thought was a staff handbook. Theres often a hella lot of details in those that you are expected to know

When I first started we were given a weeks induction showing us how to use the system as well as verbal information regarding some policies and procedures which I have always followed without fault. Management has recently changed and therefore some policies and procedures have changed which again I have always adhered to.

In my investigation meeting it was made clear that I didn't follow a policy I have never heard of.

I have never been given a handbook or anything else similar.

Every policy and procedure I follow is given verbally as and when necessary.

I love the company, staff and clients.

I don't want to lose my job over something I was never told about.

For what it's worth, I have always done the same thing in this situation but now it has got me into trouble. It has never been brought up before and I have never been told to do otherwise.

It depends. I have a lot of colleagues who will say 'I wasn't informed' when in actual fact they were informed at the same time as everyone else, they just chose not to bother reading their emails. If there is a staff handbook, paper or online, then the responsibility lies with you.

On the other hand, if you genuinely haven't been informed of something and had no access to a handbook in order to inform yourself, then that's very different.

Also the sheer number of times I have seen staff be given paper copies of policies and just sign saying they have read it without bothering is staggering! Could that have happened?

It also depends on the area of policy - I know you can't say too much but you may have accidentally done something illegal without realising and a disciplinary is the better way they can handle it?

Have you a union that can advise?

I would say (but I am VERY uninformed re employment law) that the onus is on them to prove how and when they informed you of this policy. It sounds poor on their part if they only ever give verbal direction. If they dismiss you and are unable to evidence the above then I would seek legal advice.

Have you been told when you were supposed to have been made aware of this policy? Eg was it something usually covered in induction, was it introduced as part of GDPR, was it part of the annual first aid review training etc. ?

You should have been given a written record of the investigation. The investigation should present evidence that you were told of the policy or procedure - your signature on a document to say you've had this bit of training, or a statement from a colleague to say that both you and she were told about this on such-and-such a day.

If you haven't had any verbal or written warnings so far, then they should sack you only for gross misconduct (which may include failure to follow a procedure, depending on what it was). Otherwise they should only give you a formal warning, and whatever other sanction they deem appropriate.

You can take a colleague or a TU rep into the disciplinary meeting with you. They can't speak for you, but you may be able to ask for a few minutes to confer.

If you're not in a Trade Union, it's exactly this sort of situation which makes it a good idea to join one.

To try and answer some of your question;

This policy is not online, in a handbook or otherwise.

There was an occasion when other members of staff were given further training and documents to sign but somebidy had to work and that person was me. That said, I don't believe this policy was part if the training as I had a look at the documents given afterwards.

I am not part of a union and I don't believe what I have done is illegal. It may be against policy but again, a policy I am not aware of.

We should have been informed of all policies and procedures during our induction but it didn't happen. Like I said, everything has been told to us as and when the situation arrises which hasn't been a problem, until now of course.

I plan on calling ACAS on Monday for advice.

Thank you!

Surely if you only get given verbal updates on policy and practice they have no proof that you were ever informed of a procedure update?

Then it would be their word against yours and if you are in a union then your union rep should be in your meeting with you and can advise about their burden of proof when it comes to you being aware of the policy.

This is why my company has always had written policies and makes staff sign to acknowledge they have read and understood it - so that in these cases they can pull up the paperwork and say "You have breeched XYZ. You say you weren't aware but you have signed this form saying you understand XYZ which is why this will progress to the next stage of disciplinary" or "You have breeched XYZ. You say you weren't aware and when we have looked at your records it shows you were never officially signed off for XYZ. Therefore we will not be taking this further but you need to immediately complete any outstanding policy training, especially on XYZ before you can return to your duties."

Sadly you can potentially be dismissed for almost anything if you have under 2 years’ service. This link is a good summary of the exceptions - but if it’s not to do with those, then they could potentially dismiss you. It would be a pretty shit thing to do if it’s a policy you’re genuinely unaware of, but not something you could take to a tribunal.

So when you said to them that you hadn’t been trained re that policy, what did they say?

The thought of a care company not having a staff handbook is pretty terrifying. I've worked for a couple and had several days of training that involved staff handbook and company policies before training and meeting actual clients.

Having said that, if your actions inadvertently put a client(s) at risk OP you're going to be in a very difficult situation here.

Yes, go to ACAS. Some places are very slack about informing staff of policy changes - and don't follow procedures properly at management level (for instance, they may not be doing things properly WRT the way they are treating you at present.)

Though it also depends on what, exactly, you did - I appreciate you won't want to give details - did it put someone else at risk of injury, for example? Or was it a matter of filling out a form wrong, or that type of minor thing?

Good luck with ACAS on Monday,

In my industry written policies and procedures are heavily documented. Which would make it easy to prove someone should have been aware of all policies. From what you describe I would imagine the onus would be on them to prove that you were trained accordingly. However I'm not an employment expert.

The Employment Board here has some HR professionals like Daisy & Flowery. So may be worth you reporting your post and asking the thread be moved to there

The 'policy' I was unaware of has caused a client to become very unwell. This I can admit to and I am so very sorry.

In my DDs setting, you wouldn't be dismissed.

If the Staff member hasn't been given the up to date P&Ps, or training, then they can't be disciplined or sacked, because its seen as the fault of the company.

In the jobs that I have held, there's always been paper copies given out, but as long as it wasn't a serious breach, leeway would be given.

What Allezoops said

X post. My DD has had to deal with Med procedures not being followed, but, as said, if that Staff member hasn't be told, or trained, then it just becomes about them having their knowledge updated.

Bless you, Charlie, it sounds as though you are very caring, just not given the right information and support. I hope this gets sorted out very soon and I think going to the Employment Board is a good idea.
When we have read policies we have to sign and date a form with the policy's title to say we have done so: maybe explaining at the that there is no signature and date from yourself to show you have read the policy so you could not have knowledge of it may be helpful?

I have not had any kind of review since I have been working (just under 2 years).

I have previously told my new manager that the job is too much for one person to do and she has taken steps to recruit more staff.

I have not been supported at all I don't think. I really can't go into detail but I am absolutely heartbroken that I have caused the ill health of a client.

I know I said I didn't follow a procedure I was unaware of but at the same time, I have told my manager that I can't do it on my own anymore.

Thank you for your advice so far.

I will email HR and reiterate that I was unaware of this policy and ask for a handbook or something similar to be given to all new staff regardless of what happens at my disciplinary x

If you have less than two years service I am afraid you will not be able to make a claim of unfair dismissal unless the dismissal was for something around discrimination etc.

I would call ACAS and see if you can get someone to represent you at the hearing. Make your case clearly that you have not been informed of the policy and push the fact there is no published policy available to staff. Push them to evidence when and how they believe you were made aware.

You should be given the right to appeal the outcome of the hearing so ensure that you do.