To think I can't be dismissed for not following policies and procedures I was unaware of?

[Charlieandthechocolatecake]

I work in the care industry.

I have recently been suspended on full pay pending an investigation which I had a meeting about last week.

I cannot go into detail but it has now gone to the disciplinary stage.

I have been with the company for less than 2 years.

The reason for the disciplinary is that I didn't follow policy and procedure.

I emailed HR asap to let them known I didn't agree with the wording as it was only mentioned during the investigation meeting that I didn't follow this particular policy.

I have never been informed of this particular policy.

Can I still be dismissed?

I know this post is vague, I will answer any questions as long as I don't have to give out confidential or sensitive information.

Thank you.

Absolutely impossible to advise appropriately without the specifics (does it matter to anyone or breach data privacy if you give out more info to give us a clearer idea?), but unless the policy is pretty much a ‘common sense’ type of thing that they’d expect a reasonable person to do, then you should disclose the lack of training and their passing the buck under whistleblowing policies. Because someone is ill they are finding someone to blame so they can whitewash it. Your only option is to fight back on these grounds. As others have said, they can fire you for any non-discrimatory reason they like in first 2 years so going down the ‘you can’t fire me for that route’ won’t work if they are determined that you are the person to blame, so your only recourse is to push the blame back where it belongs. It means a bit of a fight and going above the heads of whoever is disciplining you. Horrible to go through but better than the same thing happening again a year or do down the line to someone else.

I would attend the meeting in the knowledge that, under 2 years, they can part company with you for any reason apart from one where protected characteristics are involved (ie discrimination). Resist the temptation to get too defensive about the policy and procedure matter, "ignorance is no defence in law" being the principle here (not saying this is a legal situation but the same applies), saying "But I didn't know..." isn't a valid defence in this situation. It is best not to say anything than give them the ammunition to use against you. Keep your powder dry.

Don't jump to resign until you've heard everything they have to say, because if you've generally been conscientious through the past, nearly, 2 years and they've never needed to comment on your performance to date, that's a good sign. They may suggest they will be prepared to give you a formal warning and give you further training.

If it comes down to it and they do declare their intention to dismiss you, say you would be willing to tender your resignation and ask if they would be willing to give you a basic reference, stating your role and dates of employment with them.

Depending on whether they dismiss you for gross misconduct, they dont have to pay you any contractual notice period, but they do have to pay you any outstanding annual leave not taken, and they must reimburse you any expenses you've already incurred in the course of your job.

@PurpleArtichoke, in that receptionists defence it really isn't the done thing to interrupt a doctor's meeting. Was she specifically told "if patient A calls today it's ok to interrupt?", otherwise very unfair to make a low paid admin worker a scapegoat

Don't forget OP you can still report them for any wrong doing in terms of how they run their facility. You don't have to throw yourself under the bus to achieve that.

Far better to get your own employment situation resolved first rather than muddying the water by throwing accusations back at them. If you are conciliatory and can get into a negotiation with them, especially getting that reference on letterhead, then once you've got that in the bag, you can still report them to the Authorities independently, including their lack of attention to staff training, low levels of staffing to client ratio etc.

I hate to say it but this comes across to me as someone who made a mistake that went against all common sense and now wants advice without admitting what it was that they did because they know it is something that they shouldn't have done whether there was a policy stating that or not.

I get that you can't name names or give specifics but surely listing a policy that should be public knowledge would not be a breach of privacy?

We are all human and can make mistakes. The OP doesn't have to admit exactly what their misdemeanour was to satisfy anyone's curiosity. Fact is, they need to know what to do next, not get beaten up on here for not following common sense.

Resist the temptation to get too defensive about the policy and procedure matter, "ignorance is no defence in law" being the principle here (not saying this is a legal situation but the same applies), saying "But I didn't know..." isn't a valid defence in this situation.

It depends what it is. If it's something "common sense" then no, ignorance is not a defence. Otherwise, actually yes they do have to prove that they told you. it's why good employers go to such lengths to ensure policies are up to date and that employees have signed to say they've read and understood them.

in that receptionists defence it really isn't the done thing to interrupt a doctor's meeting. Was she specifically told "if patient A calls today it's ok to interrupt?", otherwise very unfair to make a low paid admin worker a scapegoat

I used to call handle for an OOH service. It was common sense, IMO to work out when you could get a doctor out of a meeting. Yes, they could have flagged something on the patient notes but you don't really want receptionists gatekeeping to that extent.

Someone medically untrained can't be expected to make a clinical judgement on what's medically urgent. I have had patients with minor ailments phone in demanding to speak to a doctor straight away, I've had critically ill patients act very blasé when I have been told to call them in for an urgent appointment. The behaviour of the patient is also a poor judge.

Admin staff who try to act like doctors generally do more harm than good.

OP you say you've taken the same action many times previously, that led to the serious deterioration of this particular service user.

So previously the service users didn't suffer any ill effects but this one did. Why? Were you fully aware of their care needs, medications, mobility etc when taking the actions you did?

Once the deterioration was noted, did those dealing with the service user do everything they should have, in accordance with the procedures?

Are you 100% certain that you were the only person involved in that service users care that caused harm in this particular episode?

Before 2 years service you can be dismissed for no reason at all, or a spurious/false reason. You are only protected if the reason is because of a protected characteristic under the equalities act. If they want you gone there is no point fighting it.

However. You need to ask HR for a written copy of the policy/procedure that is in place for ensuring that staff at your level are fully informed of new or changed policies/procedures. Read it and find out where it went wrong, and raise a formal grievance against the person whose failure to follow that policy caused this issue.

If there isn't a formal policy/procedure for that, then the person responsible for ensuring that policies/procedures are all fully documented is to blame.

As someone got ill, the organisation are looking for a scapegoat. They want to say to the family of the vulnerable ill person "we found the one to blame and she has been sacked" so they can look good. This is nice and easy as you haven't been in post for 2 years.

If the person whose fault it is that you weren't informed isn't also disciplined/sacked then you could complain to the regulator who are responsible for ensuring that care providers have robust policies. They may well be interested to know that an organisation would rather sack a junior staff member than take steps to ensure that junior staff are properly trained. That won't save your job though.

The episode with the receptionist being fired.....

The poster stated that as a result of her calls, the doctor should have been interrupted in order to have met them in the emergency department & have been ready to start treatment.

Sounds like private healthcare with calls being made directly to the surgeons office???

Surely the doctor would have had a bleep that the emergency department would have used to contact them directly on.

My point is that if a non-medical admin person has the power to cause such harm the policy is probably wrong, in that case a patient being discharged and told to call a receptionist rather than someone who can properly triage them.

I don't know what happened in the OPs case but it sounds like a failing in the system.

First of all they have suspended you on full pay, this implies that they are doing things the right way.

Under health and safety law every employee has a duty of care to their own health and for others. I suspect this is where they are going.

Eg a shop worker who drops a bottle of wine has to do what is sensible to stop anyone slipping, that could be standing there telling people to be careful while calling another member of staff to help clean up. Or putting one of those, 'danger slippy' cones out.

They may not have been given a written procedure but general common sense and an understanding of the principe can be applied.

BUT you have raised with HR that you needed more support and were not given it.

The good news is that it is 1 year now, not 2 that they need good reason to sack you.

Take someone with you to the meeting, a friend, your husband, a colleague you trust.

Point out that you have been a good worker, that you have done your best and raised concerns using the appropriate channels and that you were given no training when new management came in.

You are willing to undergo any new training they recomend and that even if their descision is to dismiss you then you would like your experience to lead to better training.

Also check your home insurance, mine has legal cover and even if you only use the phone service then it is worth it.

Is it possible to say, "I am really sorry about what happened. I take responsibility for those actions. I was not aware of the policy/procedure and this constitutes a need for training. Is it possible to undergo the necessary training and work under probation/supervision for a short time until we are all certain that this will not happen again".

Because you had been working unsafely for some time and no-one had drawn you attention to this, then it is possible that there is a wider training need in this company.

"The good news is that it is 1 year now, not 2 that they need good reason to sack you.

Take someone with you to the meeting, a friend, your husband, a colleague you trust."

It's still 2 years and I wouldn't take anyone except a colleague without checking with the person holding the meeting or you could just delay it if they refuse (which they can)

Sorry you're going through this OP😔.

I do wonder whether others upthread are correct re them arse covering and whether there has been a broader complaint... For example... I'm annoyed that no carer was arranged for my mum after her hospital discharge... And you're just the scapegoat... They expected you to do something you weren't aware you should do.

I'm no expert in employment law... I wonder whether it's worth writing to your big boss cc ing HR reiterating you had absolutely no idea re xyz policy... If you think this was discussed in training when you were 'holding the fort' you must say... This should create doubt in their heads....

Whoops! Perhaps op didn't actually get that training and we've stuffed up.

Is there anyone you can take with you to these meetings?? I would record them too on my phone... You need a record of what happened.

IF they insist on you leaving - it's usually better to resign immediately... I've heard of this happening with colleagues when an organisation stuffs up...

We need to sack you cos of xyz...
I had no idea of this (not obvious) rule.
We still want to dismiss.
I was never told or agreed to xyz... If I knew about it, I would have followed it.
If you won't reconsider, I'd like the opportunity to resign. Anything else is completely unfair...
Let them think you'll report them to cqc... Which I would do..

PS as an aside... Are you sure it's your post that is being advertised? Could they be trying to get another staff member for the office?

In your situation, if it looks likely that you will be dismissed after the investigation is complete I'd be trying to arrange a settlement agreement to leave with an agreed reference and possibly pay in lieu of notice.

They've acted poorly by not keeping you up to date with policy and to dismiss you would be very unfair but they still could. It would be better for you to walk away and have it on your record that you resigned and have a reference than to try to explain to your next employer why you were dismissed.

ACAS might be able to advise but it's more difficult to negotiate without a TU rep.

I'm sorry if I'm rubbing it in but always always always join a union, especially if you're in the care sector, education, support work etc You need someone in your corner who knows the law and correct procedure if a complaint is made or something happens at work.

@Daisychain, I think it is relevant though, if it something that most people would have done in her position without the proper policy in front of them then it is fair to argue that she made a reasonable decision given the circumstance.

If in the other hand what she did was out of the realm of what common sense should dictate regardless of policy then it id reasonable to expect she will lose her job.

I totally get the OP not wanting to get beaten up about her decision but there's not much point asking for advice from people who don't know what happened as the advice is likely to be pretty irrelevant.

The good news is that it is 1 year now, not 2 that they need good reason to sack you.

This isn't correct, the 2 year threshold, increased from 1 year, began on 6 April 2012 and is still in force.

Take someone with you to the meeting, a friend, your husband, a colleague you trust.

An employer is obliged to allow the employee to be accompanied by a work colleague or union rep to a disciplinary. The employee must state in advance who they intend to bring with them. The employer is within their rights to decline a family member or friend being at the meeting.

Stoppin sorry to disagree, but the why's and wherefore of what the OP did are completely irrelevant when the employer has the ability to dismiss within the two year threshold. They can make something up, provided they tick the box, produce some paperwork for their HR files, and do the statutory minimum. All they care about is ensuring no risk of being taken to Tribunal. Had the OP produced evidence of corporate negligence and reported the organisation to the Authorities, and then they retaliated and sacked the OP, the OP has protection from Day 1 under whistleblowing protections. Similarly for discrimination.

If the OP has reason to believe it is related to the above I'd recommend they seek legal advice.

The only "if" in all this is, if the OP can prove they are manufacturing their reason for sacking them as an expedient way of getting rid of them at the threshold of their two years' service then that could stack in their favour. But it could take months and £000 in legal fees to build their case.

Are the loca authority aware of what has happened, OP? This is very important as they will undertake their own enquiries.

@daisychain, no need to apologise for disagreeing with someone, not sure where you guys are but I am not aware of any loophole in Australia whereby you can legally be sacked for any reason at all as long at is not classed as discrimination unless it is within a stated and agreed trial period. That seems very unfair to the employees.

you can even if they broke the law you can only get financial remuneration after through going through the court system.

OP I'm thinking of you today, I wish you luck with your phone call to ACAS.