To think I can't be dismissed for not following policies and procedures I was unaware of?

[Charlieandthechocolatecake]

I work in the care industry.

I have recently been suspended on full pay pending an investigation which I had a meeting about last week.

I cannot go into detail but it has now gone to the disciplinary stage.

I have been with the company for less than 2 years.

The reason for the disciplinary is that I didn't follow policy and procedure.

I emailed HR asap to let them known I didn't agree with the wording as it was only mentioned during the investigation meeting that I didn't follow this particular policy.

I have never been informed of this particular policy.

Can I still be dismissed?

I know this post is vague, I will answer any questions as long as I don't have to give out confidential or sensitive information.

Thank you.

It sounds very difficult and upsetting, I thought you were a care worker but you say you are in the office so am trying to think how that would affect a client but I know you don't want to go into too much detail. Had you received training for your job and got signed off as competent, had appraisals, staff meetings and documented that you didn't feel it was a safe workload for one person. Was it giving out medical advice over the phone or something similar, do call A C A S for their advice.

Jock, I completely agree with everything you've said. We are under a tremendous amount of pressure at the moment which is why i haha agreed to work alone.

This is where I have gone wrong.

I shouldn't have agreed to it but it is my fault that I did, nobody else's.

If they dismiss you please report them to the CQC for not providing proper training. This is a systems issue and it’s their fault. Other people will be at risk unless they change practice.

If they’d don’t sack you hopefully they will realise it’s their fault change their practice.

But if they’re advertising your job it doesn’t sound good.

Have you complained about stress or back pain or anything health and safety?

Holey it was not giving out medical advice.

I have had no appraisals and I have never been invited to staff meetings. I have informed my manager mirenthan once that the workload was too much for one person. Even so, had I been aware of this policy i would have followed it regardless.

I’m wondering if you’ve complained about work load, saying it was too much for one person are they looking for an excuse to get rid of you?

Of course you would have followed it, it's not your fault if they don't circulate policies and procedures, are they saying the information was made available and everyone needs to read it and sign. Is it a company you want to continue working for or have you lost trust and faith in them now.

Ask them to provide you with proof that you were provided with the policy or were made aware the policy had been issued, and had access to be able to familiarise yourself with it / be trained on it (they should have hosted more than one training session if it was part of verbal training you and any others missed due to having to work). They are accusing so the onus is on them to prove your negligence here. Ask them if its in speaker notes if its not in the actual training slides provided to other staff (bet its not). Did they have an attendee list for the training which supposedly covered it - are you on it? Are any other carers not on it but havent had a similar issue by blind luck so far?

Question not just the reading (if you did) but where they have recorded your understanding of the policy - its not enough to read a policy on brain surgery then totter off to perform it is it? This is why a lot of employers require staff to sign training documents saying they have read AND understood them. If they produce new policies as well as update existing policies, how do they distribute them and ensure all staff get them? Its up to them to ensure their staff stay up to date, do they ever check their staff? No annual review suggests they dont bother to check this.

Sounds like they are the ones being negligent in providing training, checking training, distribution of training procedures and distribution of updates to existing procedures. If you can check policy expiry dates, if any of the relevant policies were past their review period, if the policies have a controlled revision history (i.e. can anyone update them / are they locked like PDF of editable word?), are they reviewed before issue, were they signed by management once issued etc. All of this weakens any case they try to hit you with.

Prepare as much as you can for your meeting (you always forget half of what you want to say when stressed!), dont let them put all the blame on you here it sounds like there are huge gaps in training processes here.

I’m wondering if it is something like this scenario.

I once had a very poor reaction after I was released home after surgery. We knew there was a chance of this reaction and if I had any symptoms I was to call the doctor immediately day or night. The staff receptionist refused to contact the doctor who was in a meeting. Now, given that I had just undergone a surgery with a known complication risk, common sense would have led the receptionist to interrupt the doctor. They refused even after multiple phone calls. We finally decided to go directly to the emergency room and I survived, but the way it should have worked was that we contact the doctor and he meets us in the emergency room ready to treat. Instead we had to explain to the emergency room staff and given my rapidly deteriorating condition, that was a problem.

The receptionist was fired. I felt a little bad, but since I almost died, it didn’t seem like an overreaction.

Definitely the care manager at fault. It is their responsibility to make sure all staff are appropriately trained & keep a record of all training. You have to sign a form each time you have received training. The manager should also have a record of when your current training will expire and refresher training should take place.

Ask for a record of all training you have done.

Good luck and stand your ground

If you think they are likely to dismiss you, it’s better to offer your resignation and negotiate for an agreed reference than end up with a dismissal on your record.

I’m a social worker. The company sounds slack but from a safeguarding perspective, I’d be concerned about your involvement in this matter and would want to see a risk assessment and management plan. I have ensured various tasks have been undertaken such as; carer is referred to disclosure and barring service and that the care agency properly follows disciplinary (as not all do this). I know you cannot say what happened but I have addressed many safeguarding concerns with carers and the person in the office can also bear some responsibility, obviously this depends on the circumstances.

That said, on a personal level, I’m sorry for what you’re going through. I hope the individual who was harmed will be ok also.

Ok, I x-posted with you OP, and now realise you work in the office. I know you're reluctant to give details, and I understand that, but I'm trying to figure out your role. You said you have been under intense pressure working as one person, when the role should be been shared between two - so I'm going to guess at care co-ordinator? You've said that the accusation against you has led to a client becoming very ill, so (again) in guessing that you've given medication advice over the phone to a care worker? You don't need to answer these questions, I'm just trying to form a picture of what's gone wrong here.
Based on my experience thus far, my guess is that they're trying to remove you from the role before your two year mark, possibly on the back of you raising issues about staffing levels? Have you raised any other concerns about company issues? Again, you don't need to answer that on here, but ime people who speak up about issues in the care sector are not welcome. They'd far rather crack on with their malpractice under the radar, without any nuisances shining a spotlight.
My advice to you would be to resign (you said you could manage financially for now?) and put the feelers out for a different care company. There are several around - some very much better than others. The better ones will welcome someone who has spoken up against the culturally ingrained malpractice, I promise you.
I hope this doesn't sound patronising in any way, but thank you for being someone who speaks up. By God, does the care sector need it.

I’m involved in adult safeguarding and although not in the direct care sector in my experience staff can be suspended quite commonly when allegations have been made or safeguarding concerns raised, this could include things like missed medication. But if this is the sort of scenario you’re involved in, there should be safeguarding section 42 enquiries which should look at how the Incidnet occurred, what lessons should be learned and what can be done to protect the service user and other service users. So the fact that you had not been made aware of this policy should be picked up on and addressed. I know it’s easiwr said than done but try not to take the suspension as a totally negative thing. It’s just that someone came to harm and regardless of fault it’s important it’s looked into and the issues addressed to minimise the chance of further harm.

Are you responsible for staffing and rotas ? Im trying to work out how you could be responsible for someone becoming ill.

For example mrs smith just returned from hospital needing extra visits that were not put in place resulting in missed medication/personal care ?

Have only read page 1 but agree entirely with @Allezoops

The 'policy' I was unaware of has caused a client to become very unwell. This I can admit to and I am so very sorry.

If you've done something wrong re medication and it's made them ill then I think you'd be possibly looking at negligence and, sorry to say, you'll struggle to get out of that one.

Unfortunately legally they don’t have to have any reason at all. Then just say goodbye under two years. So I would plan for that scenario.

If there are family members who are very upset this may be part of their way of showing they are taking it seriously. They might think you should have known without being told. They might think you have been told. They might just not like your dress sense. None of it really matters unless you think they are letting you go for protected reasons (e.g sex discrimation) the you have no recourse.

Sorry :-(

In hindsight, do you think you should have known to do things differently so the client wasn’t harmed or is it something that you couldn’t have been assumed to know to do differently?

In the unlikely event you lose your job please seek advice and do not sign anything without advice.

Did you have a different policy or procedure that you were following that effectively contradicted the policy you didn’t know about? Or were you doing the best you could in a situation having had no training at all?

Did they know that what you did in this situation was what you did? ( sounds like it) and for how long have they known? Has anybody (particularly if more senior to you) at any time ever give any indication that not only was it against procedure but also could have serious consequences? If not - - why? Did they also not know of the policy or procedures or were they not observant or did they not care? Because they are just as culpable as you if they knew and did nothing - maybe worse.

Do you know what your colleagues do in this situation and if they also know about the policy? (And if so - how?)

Do you have legal insurance on your home insurance? If so it usually co red this sort of thing - worth checking out!

I think it depends on the policy.

IME EVERY care facility has a policy manual somewhere. It's usually either a physical policy book or a collection of policies available on the intranet.

If there isn't an official policy there is usually something saying "in the absence of a policy we use the procedure outlined in the following nursing textbook" and each floor has a copy of that text.

Ignorance of the policy is not generally accepted as an excuse. It is the employee's responsibility to look up policies and procedures relevant to their employment.

This is confusing that you said you weren’t aware of the policy because when the training was on you had to be the one to man the floor. So for example the training was on how to use a new device, shouldn’t you have some responsibility to say I know something new is happening about the device, but I missed out on the information, can you please bring me up to speed so we all can practice the same. Your employer still should make sure everyone was current (my workplace signs off a checklist that specific training has been attended), but as the employee you do need to be pro-active as well

It does seem rather like they were already wanting to get rid of you if they are advertising for your job before this process has even finished?! When you say ‘before your disciplinary’ do you mean before this whole incident, or before the outcome of the process?

Either way it does rather seem like they want you gone. Is this incident a very big deal? And they are hanging you out to dry,? Or is it because you won’t ‘shut up and put up’? Or because you aren’t very good at your job and this is the final straw? Sorry about that last one!

I’d think carefully about whether this policy is something that you should have reasonably known about.

For example, as part of general professional standards or of part of an overall duty of care towards service users.

It seems a bit odd that you can have been doing something so wrong that it ended up with someone becoming very ill, for so many months, without it occurring to you that this thing could cause such a risk.

And if you feel completely confident you’re in the right on this, then yes, go ahead with this line of argument.

If not, then I’d be looking at other lines of defence as well...

Whatever the truth of it, I feel for you. As the receiver of social care, I know well the issues in this industry and the types of attitudes that prevail

When you say just under 2 years, are you say a couple of weeks away from 2 years? If so, can you could sign off sick through stress to get over the 2 years? Idk if it is possible as you’re suspended currently. But I would take legal advice before doing this. I know that is expensive.

Dh recently saw an employment lawyer and he negotiated a settlement from a 20 year job for about £500. One meeting, emails, phone calls with dh and the company plus signing off the final agreement. So that gives you an idea of costs and an initial meeting would not be anything like this.

I also agree with others not to let yourself be dismissed but to resign first.