To think I can't be dismissed for not following policies and procedures I was unaware of?

[Charlieandthechocolatecake]

I work in the care industry.

I have recently been suspended on full pay pending an investigation which I had a meeting about last week.

I cannot go into detail but it has now gone to the disciplinary stage.

I have been with the company for less than 2 years.

The reason for the disciplinary is that I didn't follow policy and procedure.

I emailed HR asap to let them known I didn't agree with the wording as it was only mentioned during the investigation meeting that I didn't follow this particular policy.

I have never been informed of this particular policy.

Can I still be dismissed?

I know this post is vague, I will answer any questions as long as I don't have to give out confidential or sensitive information.

Thank you.

Tbh, I thought you were going to say it was something like money handling. If your practice ended up in the Ill health of a client down to not knowing about a policy, that is quite negligent. P&P are generic, and if you are part of a registered council, it is also your responsibility to be aware of them.

Every policy and procedure I follow is given verbally as and when necessary.

That's not really a policy or procedure then. This is a problem for the organisation. Essentially when it comes to audit, if there's no evidence trail, it didn't happen. it sounds as if there are learning points for them as much as for you.

You should have been assessed at the end of your trial period and you should have annual reviews. These should be documented. Definitely talk to ACAS. They are on shaky ground - but they may come gunning for you anyway. Good luck OP.

Ask for them to show you where this policy is in writing.

If they are unable to do so, ask them to specify when they gave you this policy verbally. Ask for an exact date or time.

If they are unable to do either, ask them to explain how you're supposed to follow a policy you have not been informed of, either in writing or verbally.

Point out that you have two years of sterling service, and do they seriously want to lose you as an employee based on a single incident that is entirely their fault? Mention that you are happy to kick up legal stink about this if pressed. See how they respond.

As an aside, as an ex-care worker myself, it's completely ludicrous you don't have a handbook of any kind.

OP, sorry you must be very stressed about this.

What policy were you unaware off? Not asking what happened, but it may help others reading to not make the same mistake.

Unfortunately, as you've been employed by them for less than 2 years you don't have the same protection - your employer can dismiss you for any reason, as long as it isn't for any discriminatory reason, within 2 years.

Mention that you are happy to kick up legal stink about this if pressed. See how they respond.

With less than 2 years service they can dismiss.

Without seeing what policy you have supposedly breached, it's hard to say but you have my sympathy.

I worked in care for a while and unfortunately there was a lot of people who didn't know stuff - not because of negligence or incompetence.

But mainly because training was 3 days in a classroom followed by 2 shifts of shadowing an existing carer. No homework beyond a safeguarding elder abuse worksheet.

That was literally it - all the above was the entirety of the training any domiciliary care worker would have back in 2010 at the company I worked at. If they lasted two years, the coordinators may stick their names down for an NVQ2 in care but that was about it.

I know I can be dismissed for any reason but is that still possible if the reason isn't valid?

I admittedly was a bit of a mess at my meeting after finding out the client was now very unwell so I didn't mention that I was unaware of this policy that is not documented.

Sethis I will definitely ask for proof that I should have been aware of this policy.

Duck90 I'm afraid if I say, I would be giving out too much information so I can't I'm afraid.

What I can say is that the policy I have been following (given verbally) seemingly doesn't exist.

I honestly am very good at my job, if I was aware of this policy I would have followed it, there is no doubt about that.

However I wasn't aware and now a client is extremely unwell. I take full responsibility because it happened on my watch. But again, I wasn't to know.

For what it is worth, I am not a carer. I work from the office.

I know I can be dismissed for any reason but is that still possible if the reason isn't valid?

Yes, unless its for one of the pritected reasons as had already been said by pp.

They could just say you are no longer required.

The fact that a client is now extremely unwell is very concerning.

Other have said it but unfortunately with less than 2 years service you can be dismissed and, unless you can suggest that it is due to a protected characteristic, you won't have any claim for unfair dismissal.

You could call ACAS for advice but I would suggest that you attend any disciplinary hearing in a calm, professional manner. You can explain what went wrong this time, talk about the need for a clearer procedure and what you would do differently in future. Given the recruitment issues in your industry, if you are able to convince them that this was a mistake, that you weren't aware of xyz procedure and that you want to keep your job you may get a final warning rather than a dismissal.

Also, my position has been advertised prior to my disciplinary.

I honestly am very good at my job, if I was aware of this policy I would have followed it, there is no doubt about that.

However I wasn't aware and now a client is extremely unwell. I take full responsibility because it happened on my watch. But again, I wasn't to know

Apart from perhaps the bit about taking full responsibility, I would go in saying this. I should make it clear that I am not an expert in employment law by any means - but I have been caught up in some nasty situations at work which does mean I've had to learn a fair bit about negotiation!

I would not go in all guns blazing. Point out that, this aside, you are good at your job. You enjoy it, you want to keep doing it. You want to learn from this experience. You want to know where the policies are and how they are shared. You want to make sure no-one else makes similar mistakes in future and that they learn from your mistakes too.

Fresheyre that is what I plan on doing. I can cope with a final warning or something similar and then ask for further documented training regarding policies and procedures.

You're in the office? Yeah, call ACAS and brace for some arse-covering, especially if the CQC gets involved.

FYI I could believe that there wouldn't be any handbooks either, our personnel officers, coordinators and field assessors didn't have any. Only the accounts person had anything resembling a policy document.

Good luck.

Gabilan I will do that too. thank you.

I am very passionate about my job and even if I lose it I don't want others to be caught out as I have.

I will definitely not go in all guns blazing. I am honestly and kind and considerate person regardless of when I am at work or elsewhere.

If they decide dismissal is the only way forward i will accept it and give them some pointers as to how they can avoid this happening again.

I know it's neither here nor there but I have a lot of staff and clients who appreciate my work. If I have to leave I am going to miss them so much, even though I've never met the majority of them in person.

It sounds really sad but I relocated to where I am because of DP's work and this job has really brought out the best in me.

There have been many times when I have been a shoulder to lean on for them and all I can hope is that somebody with my empathy will take my place.

A good organisation should own up to their responsibilities, if a mistake happened, then everyone needs to learn from it.

It sounds like you are being thrown under the bus for this.

Bless you OP. What a horrible situation.

Acas will be able to give you advice. Any investigation has to be fair and they need to make you aware what the allegations are.

You don’t know what you don’t know. Please don’t beat yourself up about this. Mistakes happen and we do what we think is appropriate at the time. You did not intend to cause harm. I think the best way forward is to be apologetic at your hearing but say that you genuinely did not know about the policy. Tell them what you would do differently in future.

I am sorry you are going through this.

I'm Not sure they are allowed
To advertise your role prior to a disciplinary? Acas will advise though

Duck90 and Mudcity...thank you for your kindness. It means a lot. I don't have friends where I live so I don't really have anybody to speak to about this all.

My DP is very supportive of me. We will be ok if I am dismissed.

You've all been so kind and helpful.

Thank you.

If they can't prove you were aware, e.g. you signed a document, it was a documented discussion in supervisions etc. then they are on very shaky ground. Ask them for proof of your being made aware of the policy, but don't specify what they should provide to you, let them tell you what they have.

Confusedmomm I don't think they are either. But it is what it is I suppose!

I'm a former care manager with many years' experience within care homes and domiciliary care. I'll start by saying, it's extremely unusual for a care worker to be dismissed outright for not following policy and procedure - for the simple reason that the whole sector is buckling under the strain of a recruitment and retention crisis. Any such 'misdemeanour' would normally flag up a retraining programme, with some focus on what went wrong and what the company could do to avoid a repeat incident. If you haven't been given a copy of the staff handbook, or been involved in any ongoing training regarding current policies and procedures, that indicates some pretty awful practices in the part of your employer. I'm afraid to say, I'm not hugely surprised - there are some hideous care companies out there.
As other pp have said, ACAS may be able to help - even if it's just to offer some guidance through the next stages.
If you have any wider concerns about your employer, you might want to consider reporting them to the CQC - even if that means waiting until your own situation has drawn to a close. I have to say that, personally, I have no truck with the CQC, and zero faith in their ability to police the widespread malpractice that goes on in the care sector. But, it's all we've got - and, if you've got concerns about malpractice, it's worth a shot.
You sound like a good care worker, and I'm sorry if you've found yourself in this situation through no fault of your own. The whole sector is in dire need of conscientious people to speak up - although, in my experience, it rarely ends well. Good luck.

Is it worth me saying now that I am aware of the policy I will follow it in future?