To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

The evidence is clearly mixed. There is no "ample evidence" one way or the other.

A quick google indicates many academics dispute the evidence, as my quote from Professor P Brians indicates. It is disputed on both sides.

My statements we absolutely NOT categorical I said "there is no direct causal link" there isn't. There are a variety of contemporaneous primary sources that contradict each other.

I did absolute NOT say "the phrase has nothing to do with Ireland" I said it was "probably used referencing Pales both in Ireland and the U.K." Did you even read my post or did you respond to what you expected me to say?

You are implying I am being didactic when I am saying, as with a lot of history there is no clear smoking gun and pointing finger.

You then go on to insult me, again.

Your arguments are being invalidated by the fact you choose to insult people.
Your arguments are invalidated by the fact you did not read my post.
Your arguments are being invalidated by the fact that you do not accurately represent my argument.

I am debating in good faith. I don't think you are.

The 'categorical' statements are those of Ruffina.

Maybe read those posts of mine you think are addressing posts of yours again.

Again Math are you reading my posts.

I was not confused about the pale. My point was that the phrase that was already in existence was adapted to refer to the Pale of Settlement. The phrase that existed was "subsumed" and while it started with one meaning that meaning was changed by common usage.

It would be ludicrous if someone said the phrase came from Yiddish but I. Did. Not. Say. That.

..and ask if perhaps I was responding to posts of Ruffina's....

Well you referenced me in the post, but you don't refer to any poster by name so it is unclear exactly who you are insulting.

Mousse
Those posts of mine that you think are insulting you or wrongly attributing arguments to you are posts responding to Ruffina.

Anyone claiming the Pale of Settlement is the origin of the phrase 'beyond the Pale' is implying that the phrase comes from Yiddish or Russian. They did not speak English back in Zhitomyr.

Then you really need to reference the poster you are specifically referring to if you want it to be a one person only response.

Or you could respond to the points I made...

My point was that the phrase that was already in existence was adapted to refer to the Pale of Settlement.
Mousse

Fine as far as it goes.

So let's talk about the Jews then.
What did people who weren't Jews think of them?
Was there much prejudice against them?
Were they considered foreign or suspected of disloyalty? (This was the least of what they were suspected of).
Why were they restricted to living separately from the rest of the Imperial subjects?

I am suggesting here that they were held in exactly the same low esteem as the Irish were (as illustrated in my long post with many links). The Pale always separates Us from Them. Us inside and Them beyond or outside. Or 'by west'. Those in the 'Them' category are considered inferior, wild, uncivilised, treacherous and all of those terms were applied to the native Irish and those Normans who had 'gone native' by the English.

The most likely Pale that would have given rise to the phrase in English is not the one 1,500 miles away, but the one next door.

You do seem to show some understanding of how a phrase can originate in one specific place and time and refer to one specific group of people and come to encompass similar dynamics (inferior/superior; treacherous/loyal; Them/Us) in another place entirely. I will grant you that.

Mousse Maybe you could keep track of your own posts and thus distinguish quotes from your posts from quotes from Ruffina's? I italicise all quotes bar the odd few. Look them up using Ctrl F if you're on a PC and not sure whose posts I am quoting.

"I will grant you that"

Oh thank you Math I'm so grateful you "grant" me a glimmer of intelligence. The relief is incalculable.

The phrase is possibly problematical in origin but so is a vast swathe of the English language.

Swing a cat - referring to violent punishment.
No can do - definitely racist in origin
Bloody - blasphemous
Pressed for an answer - anti catholic

If we were to deconstruct every idiom the language would be stripped of its joy and vigour.

Some terms are clearly offensive "throw a paddy" and we should stop using them.

However, when the primary sources are unclear and the terms have moved, changed and been subsumed we need to be more careful before calling for the term to be restricted.

There is a big difference between stopping the use of the 'n' word and stopping children from singing 'baa baa black sheep'. We are in 'baa baa black sheep' territory with this phrase.

The lack of awareness in the irony here did make me smile:

Math: The etymology shows no such thing. It only shows the limits of etymology as a means of establishing when a phrase was used. In this particular case, the article in which you place so much faith also shows the limits of the individual etymologist.
He is clearly no historian, and I will hazard a guess based on your fondness for etymology as a font of fact that neither are either of you.
...
Math: I suspect if you knew more about the history of the printed word in Ireland and England you might not have written this - the fantastical idea that a phrase arose in the late Middle Ages but no one ever wrote it down in any form of work in England or in Ireland for hundreds of years. That’s so unlikely as to be immediately discountable.
…
Math: [chortle] You continue to dispense categorical statements on topics you know very little about.

As to the rest, it’s not going anywhere. It’s just an attempt at proof by bludgeon.

You're just jealous @Ruffina because I have been granted something and you haven't.

"Math: I suspect if you knew more about the history of the printed word in Ireland and England you might not have written this - the fantastical idea that a phrase arose in the late Middle Ages but no one ever wrote it down in any form of work in England or in Ireland for hundreds of years. That’s so unlikely as to be immediately discountable."

I don't find that so unlikely as to be immediately discountable. Few people in the Middle Ages, and following eras, could read and write; and were able to afford the expensive writing materials. They were people, most likely educated by the Church - either priests or the aristocracy or prosperous middle classes (who were probably record keeping, rather than writing histories, treatises, etc) . They were quite likely to be acquainted with "common" phrases in the vernacular, but which they did not think suitable for their educated writings, any more than we would expect to find swear words in academic articles.

"Manducare", a Latin word for to eat, was rarely used in Latin literature, , as it was considered a peasant word. However, it came into French, as "manger". The Latin word for plant pot "testa" came to mean "head" in slang in Gaul, hence "tete" in modern French.

I have not RTFT, but what are we going to have next? "Hi" in Cantonese means "cunt". Are we going to have Cantonese speakers coming on MN, objecting to how the English say "hi" to each other and them? Are we going to have the Greeks objecting to the use of the open palm hand wave in England, because its offensive in Greece? There could be no end to it?

I am English and don't know any Irish people. I use beyond the pale, to mean beyond what is acceptable, and that is all!

Meanings of words and phrases change over time, and we cannot inhibit the evolution of living languages, by insisting on references to historical meanings - when English speaking people outside Ireland have no idea what "beyond the pale" actually refers to (and there seems to be a lot of dispute about that from what I have read in this thread)

(SaltPans - I am not sure if you intended to attribute it to me, but the phrase you quote: the fantastical idea that a phrase arose in the late Middle Ages but no one ever wrote it down in any form of work in England or in Ireland for hundreds of years. That’s so unlikely as to be immediately discountable was originally posted by Ruffina and quoted by me in italics).

I absolutely agree with you that what was committed to paper in the late medieval/early modern period did not necessarily reflect everyday speech, and therefore the 'earliest recorded written example of the phrase' argument (the etymology argument) is irrelevant to the history of the phrase.

However, I disagree with your 'Hi' example. In this case, it's not a different language we are talking about. Of course there are phrases in other languages that have meanings in English that are a far cry from the English meaning. Nobody is contemplating a comprehensive weeding out of every syllable that might mean something different elsewhere.

The meaning of 'beyond the Pale' has never changed. It always meant 'beyond what was acceptable'. What has changed is that many people have forgotten that that which was unacceptable was the Irish, Irish customs, Irish language, Irish (Brehon) law.

we cannot inhibit the evolution of living languages, by insisting on references to historical meanings
We can, and in fact we do it all the time. The pace of weeding out of words and phrases based on historical meanings has accelerated in recent decades.

We no longer use many slurs or metaphors or similes that were once commonplace. In deference to MN's policies on this I will not list them here but the slurs I refer to are against black people, Jews, native Americans, people from Pakistan and India, gays, lesbians, women in general, and the list goes on.

I was born in the 60s and remember a programme called 'The Black and White Minstrel Show' in primetime on BBC. It ran until 1978. Would it run now?

The Prime Minister in her Tory Party conference speech of 2016 referred to 'citizens of nowhere' and was roundly and rightly criticised for that. It was an old reference to Jews (aka 'rootless cosmopolitans') and raised many a hackle. A short memory is no excuse for use of language that is offensive.

What do you think people who whine about 'PC running amok' are complaining about? They are in their own way complaining that language has been stripped of all its joy, vigour, etc. All the joy that was in it for them, that is...

Northern Ireland has its own set of slurs used by both communities, but just because the average English, Welsh or Scottish person might not know what any of them mean doesn't mean you can use those slurs in everyday speech after you have been told they are slurs and that they offend. It doesn't matter that the terms have been used for over 200 years. It doesn't matter if you personally mean no harm or offense if you use them.

mathanxiety agree fully

I repeat:

There is a big difference between stopping the use of the 'n' word and stopping children from singing 'baa baa black

We are I baa baa black sheep territory with this one.

I am with you SaltPans on that post and with Mm, but because I and mo st of us are pretty nice I shall certainly be cautious of using beyond the pale from now on if anyone Irish is about.

We can probably all agree to try to be kind to each other, but having to censor speech too much just to take account of a minority of people who most of the time we don't meet is probably going a bit far.

Whether the Irish customs referenced above were awful and something no one might want of course is a separate debate. If a phrase is accurate eg more men than women abuse children then we should of course be free to state the fact.

The Irish customs were simply different, Xenia.
The customs included dress, the relative importance of various court officials, habits of hospitality. Also naming customs.

I would be interested to know how you would identify an Irish person? How would you know if one was about?

That is your opinion, Mousse. It's not a fact that we are in 'baa baa black sheep territory'.
Since you are apparently not a member of the group that finds the phrase offensive, your opinion on what is offensive vs ridiculous over-sensitivity doesn't actually count. The idea you hold that your opinion should be a significant factor in whether you use the phrase or not is a problem in and of itself.

I am currently in Ireland, not far from the border in an area that had HORRIFIC problems with the English landlords and then during the Troubles.

I'll admit, its a phrase I'll choose not to use here
but I'll go back to using it after my ferry ride

because different words mean different things in different places at the same time.

any other approach leads to the thought police

Is that regardless of who you might offend on the other side of the sea, Talkinpeace?

The phrase means exactly the same thing everywhere, including in Ireland. Its origins have (clearly) been forgotten by some, but it would probably be a good idea to remember that not all of the people you interact with will be ignorant of where it came from.

math
I am willing to accept that here in Ireland it is more of a nerve touching phrase than it is anywhere else.
Therefore I am altering my vocab slightly, as I do when I go to the USA.

Beyond the Pale still applies to Bournemouth

I use a massive amount of these phrases in my speaking and thinkings. I was thinking about it the other day. It kind of links me to the past in the way all those fairy stories we ell our children about imprisonment, cannibalism , step mothers and the like too and the bible stories about all sorts that was relevant 5000 and 2000 years ago. Like most people however I don't tend to use something that might offend someone who is in front of me but nor will I start changing the basics of English language and idiom just to suit people who need therapy and are too over sensitive.

How will I know if someone is irish? hard to tell given I am a good part Irish and physically look Irish, all those celtic freckles and very white skin. I will just have to hope for the best but I cannot stop writing or talking. I have given 1700 public talks since 1993 and I try very very hard in those not to say anything that offends people. The latest hard bit has been Brexit - half the nation is against and half for so I have tried when talking about EU law to be very neutral on the topic - that has been my biggest recent challenge in relation to not upsetting people. The EU changed its black and white list of causes for bad and good ones and now it is hard core which givesn its sexual implication always raises a laugh although I suppose anyone into hard core porn in the audience (probably a good few) might think the EU should not use that phrase either.

In more general terms one of my student sons was saying how much he likes all these phrases I use and he finds them funny and interesting ( we were not talking about beyond the pale one). I thkn they give a big depth to people's English. A lot come from our nation of sailors - in the 1700s I had ancestors who were mariners living on Orkney. We sail to close to the wind, sheets to the wind and countless others. It certainly in a home bringing up small children can lead to a lot of interesting political and historical discussions when we talk about words and their derivation. it is good for children to learn this kind of thing. My main instruction to them now as ever however is to be kind. So even if you think someone is an utter wimp for getting upset because you mention you fancy blondes or slim or larger women you shut up and just be kind to them. There is no point in going around upsetting people.

Xenia
Celtic freckles and white skin?
That means most of my family are possibly not Irish despite ancestry stretching back into the mists of time. Maybe this Christmas would be the time to order one of those DNA kits...

'Celtic'?
How 'quaint'.

It is indeed true that 'in a home bringing up small children can lead to a lot of interesting political and historical discussions when we talk about words and their derivation', and now that you know the derivation of the phrase 'beyond the pale' it is to be hoped that you will stop insinuating that those who object to it are in need of therapy, over-sensitive, or whatever, and find some other way to express the concept of something unacceptable in your talks and in private.

The English language is a vast treasure trove of phrases and about 172,000 individual words after all, and I am sure you will find something appropriate as an alternative, even given your belief that 'beyond the pale' is a phrase that is part of 'the basics of English language and idiom'.

www.thesaurus.com/browse/beyond%20the%20pale
This might be helpful.

I look celtic. You will never wrench the celt from me and I look like my irish ancestors (and I have done the DNA tests -I am in large part Irish and Scottish - 57%, 25% English and 5 % nordic - all those rapaging Norsemen probably in Orkney and in NE England which may be why I've 3 blonde children). All good stuff and we all came out of Africa originally if we go far enough back.

In life a lot of people benefit if they can get a fairly thick skin however my main advice remains - try to be kind to others; you cannot go too far wrong with that. However if you find loads of things upset you all the time therapy can be a good idea. for men it can be anger - I was talking to my sons about it. We are all very calm as was my father but it is a huge struggle for some men Irish, English or anything else to stop losing their temper, not punch the wall or worse and just count to 10 and breath calmly and let the feeling pass.

There may or may not be any such thing as 'Celtic' Xenia...

Is it possible that your comments on therapy and its usefulness may belong on another thread?

If you in fact intended your comments on therapy to be posted on this thread, then may I suggest you add 'try not to be patronising' to your 'must-do' list.