To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

There's three threads. I started the first one, and my user name is GiantBanger referring to a big firework, not gangbanger.

The battle of the Boyne wasn't on July 1st 1690 then?

There's three threads. I started the first one, and my user name is GiantBanger referring to a big firework, not gangbanger

Ah right,that's why it's getting confusing then if there's so many running
I didn't mean you,and anyone reading your name as gangbanger needs to go to SpecSavers lol.

I started the first one, and my user name is GiantBanger referring to a big firework, not gangbanger

But as some people will take that inference, just like the Irish issue over a pale, and they will be offended I'm assuming you'll practice what you preach and change your name? As will I stand? Becayse you've been very clear, it's not about intent, it's not about the origin, it's what some folks attribute to it and use it as, as such, you will I assume change your name immediately?

You wouldn't want two rules? One for you and one for everyone else?

I haven't got a rude user name.

The issue in Northern Ireland is around bonfires and 12th July in today's landscape

If people read my name incorrectly, I will point out that they have read my name wrongly and that it is not gangbanger and I will, as I have done, as HaitchQ to amend any posts that wrongly refer to me as gangbanger as it is disgusting.

@Giantbanger, if anyone takes offence at your name, I can only imagine the workings of their mind...

Yes - I know several dates are important - I just gave one I knew off the top of my head.

My point remains there are sensitivities and issues in NI that really do not apply to the rest of the U.K.. It would also seem that some of these sensitivities do not apply to Ireland either.

I don't think the rest of the world can (or should) take into account very specific regional beliefs that do not apply to them.

Bluntness the issue with that person would be their inability to read my name properly. There is no inference in my name.

Well, the Equality Act disagrees Mousse.

To be honest, I don't take offence at either of the names in question.

But it's a valid and important point. The arguing for here is it doesn't matter intent. It doesn't matter the understanding of the meaning, it doesn't matter the history and the origin, it doesn't even matter than many Irish people are posting and saying they aren't offended. These posters are saying this phrase is used in a racist way by a small percentage of people regionally. And as such a global website like mumsnet can't use it and we are all racists if we do.

As such, if they have user names that can caus offence to some people they themselves should follow their own rules and change their names. They lose any credibility if they refuse to do so.

Which point specifically does it disagree on?

So my user name offends who exactly?

banger don't mind them, seriously.

They're like playground bullies kicking their heels in the dust and sulking that it's "not fair" after a telling-off. Let them.

All because MNHQ agreed with us that it was appropriate to amend their talk guidelines and remove a phrase with racist connotations.

Mardhea do you have anything to add to the thread other than personal attacks and instructing people who they are allowed to respond to?

Just curious.

All because MNHQ agreed with us that it was appropriate to amend their talk guidelines and remove a phrase with racist connotations

I support MN’s ammendment of the guidelines. It would be nice if they take a more consistent stance as regards anti-Irishness on the site.

And anyone who thinks GiantBanger’s username is potentially offensive needs glasses or a lobotomy.

But I still think my original point stands.

They're like playground bullies kicking their heels in the dust and sulking that it's "not fair" after a telling-off. Let them.

Sorry but that comes accross as quite childish.

My belief in regard to freedom of speech may well disagree with the equalities act. I tend towards the more liberal and dislike the banning of words or phrases.

As I explained earlier I can see why 'having a Paddy' would be offensive. It is clearly linked to a derogatory use of a name historically used by by people in Ireland.

My issue with 'beyond the pale' is that there is no clear link that the phrase originated from Ireland. In fact there is significant evidence that it comes from an earlier time. The phrase is not specifically Irish - it is used without contention in many other English speaking countries. It now seems that it is an issue specifically in NI.

We have had posters saying some people in Ireland like the term as it implies they were difficult to conquer. Posters from Ireland say they use the term and it's not an issue. Their is no significant weight of opinion in Ireland against it.

It is not cut a dried. Some people find the term offensive but some people find blasphemy offensive but Ireland has revoked the clause in its constitution making it illegal.

IStandWithPosie and the views stated on their comment will definitely be offensive to a lot. So that point is still a valid one.
GiantBanger not so much, unless it's offending people who can't read properly lol

Just saw on the BBC about the burning of a Grenfell Tower model with brown cut-out people being burnt as part of bonfire night.

Those are the issues that threads like these take away focus from.

I am quite happy that people disagree with me. Disagreement is good. Discussion about freedom of speech is good. Society benefits from these discussions it raises awareness of issues. Why would I be sulking MNHQ made a decision - good for them.

I just happen to disagree on banning this particular term because the case is weak.

As I said I tend towards a more liberal standpoint so my views are not the same as the law or the governments and in this case MNHQ.

That's fine. Agreeing to disagree is a vital part of democracy.

Yes, I agree with Mousse.

Also mst of us in the UK stand by the Irish as our closest neighbours and friends. We genuinely do not have it in for the Irish in any sense at all. Don't worry. It is always interesting hearing about people in other countries and their views on things.

Of course I am sitting here being subject to very loud fireworks which I suppose if I wanted to could say offended my Catholic sensibilities and Irish heritage - we were after all on the side of Guy Fawkes but I will let it pass as given where I live it is just as likely to be Diwali. Either way it wakes babies and disturbs dogs.

It really doesn’t matter about the origins and history if the phrase is used in a racist manner today. It’s not really a phrase I use but I think I will avoid it in future. It’s no bother to do so and doesn’t affect me. I know some Irish people have said that it doesn’t offend them, but enough in this thread have said that it does for me to avoid the phrase.

Just saw on the BBC about the burning of a Grenfell Tower model with brown cut-out people being burnt as part of bonfire night.

Those are the issues that threads like these take away focus from.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with discussions like this. All racism is bad. As a brown person, I want to get rid of any xenophobia or racism. I also know that small phrases, comments, actions all build up.

Mousse you keep talking about "banning" but nothing has been banned.

A phrase was removed from official talk guidelines that form the policy for moderating MN. That is all that happened. That is all we asked for.

People are free to use the phrase on MN all they wish, if they wish even after the racist connotations have been repeatedly explained. It's not banned.

You seem to be getting quite het up over something that hasn't actually happened.