To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

[changehere]

Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

Once it has been pointed out to you that it is used today in a racist why, why would you continue to use it?

*way

To be fair, the term ‘yer ma’ is used as an insult in NI. Should we stoo saying ‘your mother’?

Yer ma isn't used as an insult specifically towards nationalists or catholics though, in the way that beyond the Pale is.

I’m sorry Math but I think your argument is horribly contrived. And unconvincing.

Of course words have linguistic relatives and interlocked senses. That’s characteristic of a language. But to say “phrase X is racist because it comes from...” you have to show it does ‘come from...’. Yet there’s no evidence at all that the phrase refers to the Irish Pale. Just your assertion - or your wish?

The trouble with folk etymology is that it promotes bogus ‘facts’ and undermines language. Most significantly, though, in cases like this it demonises people who aren’t ‘aware’ (of the made up reason). It’s a way of creating special, select knowledge.

If you want an example, look up the nonsense created over the word ‘picnic’ in the US.

As I said above, the British have many things to be ashamed of in respect of Ireland. That phrase just isn’t one of them.

There’s no colonial mindset at work. You’re just wrong, but are too invested to back down.

What do you think, Ruffinia of the fact that it is used in a racist way by certain types of unionists today, to refer to catholics and nationalists? How do you feel about using it knowing that?

~Sorry Ruffina

There are a lot of Irish posters on this site (me included) that are offended by a phrase that makes up part of the talk guidelines on how not to offend people.

How do MNHQ and the posters here who see no problem with the phrase just not see this?

Giantbanger

Is it? Why? What foolish people.

What sort of racist statement do these people use it in?

The phrase is used, in Northern Ireland, today, with racist connotations

And many Irish people are on here disputing that fact. In addition, most people on here are not in Northern Ireland, and do not use it with any racist connotations.

There are a lot of Irish posters on this site (me included)

Well you need to get a lot more of them to post on here, becayse there is a lot of Irish folk posting and saying not only do they disagree, they don't know any Irish person who does.

The question is not if you know it's racist why use it. In this context it's if you know it's not racist in the popular generic usage, why continue to take offence?

unionst politicians use it to denigrate nationalist catholics. It is a particular type of staunch loyalist who uses it.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/why-southern-nationalists-sneering-at-northern-irish-unionists-is-beyond-the-pale-35843246.html

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/arlene-foster-to-say-jeremy-corbyn-beyond-pale-for-past-support-of-republicans-35738878.html

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/why-are-unionist-causes-beyond-the-pale-among-socalled-activist-academics-at-northern-irelands-two-universities-36681346.html

www.williedoherty.com/content/seeing-beyond-pale-photographic-works-willie-doherty

uup.org/news/4247/Gerry-Adams-words-are-contemptible-and-beyond-the-pale-Nesbitt

As I said, there's a particular type of loyalist who uses the phrase. As long as you're happy to be associated with them, then carry on.

I fyou know it's racist in a particular area of the UK, why would you continue to use it when it's pointed out to you? Doesn't that make you a bit ashamed that you continue to use a phrase that has such a sense behind it?

Then I suggest you have a word with th culprits who use it erroneously and in a racist way, the unionist politicians.

And accept that for everyone else around the world that that's not what it means, and not how it's used.

Making it a racist phrase isn't the answer. Because it's not. History shows us it's not. Becayse a small, tiny, minority do it, doesn't mean that's what it is, or what the rest of the world mean when they use it.

What makes you think I haven't challenged it Bluntness?

It is used as a racist phrase, therefore it is in my view unacceptable in talk guidelines here. Unless, of course, HaitchQ are happy to align with those politicians.

It's just totally naive to expect people to avoid all these expressions.

Not once they know. Once you know, you know. No excuse.

in British English most people say beyond the pale meaning - something is unacceptable and are using it with the non irish origin meaning.

Being unacceptable is the Irish meaning! The pale was used precisely to keep the “unnacceptable” Irish from the English occupied area. The phrase “beyond the pale” means unnacceptable because the original use of the pale was to keep the “unnacceptable” beyond it!!
It doesn’t mean unacceptable for some unrelated reason!

To be fair, the term ‘yer ma’ is used as an insult in NI. Should we stoo saying ‘your mother’?

Yer ma is the colloquial version of “Yo momma”. In England it’s “your Mum” it’s certainly not exclusive to NI.

most people on here are not in Northern Ireland but they are mostly from the UK of which NI is a part. Why would they be happy for something that makes their compatriots uncomfortable to remain in the Talk Guidelines?

Then I suggest you have a word with th culprits who use it erroneously and in a racist way, the unionist politicians.

I suppose Teresa could have word with her bed buddies. I mean, they are the reason the British leadership exists as it does. They’re your politicians now too. This isn’t just an NI issue.

Also, why is it just up to me to challenge them? Why isn't it up to everyone who now knows the phrase is used in a racist way to challenge them? Do you think I voted for those people? Actually do you think that Bluntness? Do you not see that it is worth everyone activating about this type of thing?

I have I be completely honest and have never heard a unionist politician using the phrase racistly. I'm very surprised so many Irish people are posting on here saying they are unaware of the connotations and not offended by it, and know of no Irish person who is, when we have a small handful of people posting it's endemic, that's the meaning and everyone is wrong apart from them.

You'd think everyone would know wouldn't you. At least in Ireland.

Curious really,,,,

Ok so I didn't provide links then Bluntness?

Why are you so determined to be dismissive?

Your links are probably wrong giant, we’ve probably just misinterpreted them. Or maybe we just can’t read at all.

I'm going to go to ECNI tomorrow if I haven't heard from HaitchQ and ask their advice about what to do next. I really don't want to, but I feel HaitchQ need some external body to advise them on this because for some reason they aren't hearing what it's like to be Irish on these boards and have the faux innocence racism all the time.

bluntness stop gaslighting. The meaning of the phrase is undisputed: it refers to the boundary of acceptable or civilised behaviour. Many Irish posters (on this thread and others about the phrase) do not like the phrase because of its connection with the Pale in Ireland and the implication that Irish people and culture are uncivilised. More posters from NI have described how it's still used as a racial slur there. Other Irish posters have said the phrase doesn't bother them. The summary is that the racist connotation exists and Irish posters are mixed between those who are bothered by it and those who are not.

Once more, because you keep ignoring it when anyone says it, the etymology is irrelevant. As a phrase, it has racist, discriminatory connotations in the present day. As a phrase, many MNers are bothered by its use because it has been used against them to disparage their culture and ethnicity.

As an individual, you can continue to use the phrase all you like and I'll judge you accordingly.
As MNHQ, it is highly inappropriate that they use it a phrase in talk guidelines about acceptable behaviour, and its use in those guidelines is what I want changed. It is even worse that MNHQ doubled down and dismissed concerns from MNers who pointed out the racist connotations, and that is why I would also like MNHQ mods to take a long hard look at how they deal with their own implicit bias when it comes to Irish issues.

But I don't think you'll engage with the content of my post any more than you have with previous explanations because you're being a gf who isn't posting in good faith.

Sigh. Your post started off well mardhea, but when you resort to personal insults becayse someone disagrees with you, then you lose all credibility.

You're not even reading my posts, just lashing out, I stated quite categorically that it's not a phrase I particularly use, and honest to god, I could give less of a shit for some random on the Internet "judging" me. As I'm sure you give less of a shit about my judging you.

Honestly, I'm out, i Simply can't be arsed discussing with people who refuse to accept that indisputable, that this phrase does not have racist origins and is used by the overwhelming majority of folks with no racist connotations at all.

When you then start hurling insults at folks putting that point across then you lose your argument and turn this thread into nothing more than an echo chamber.

Mar I completely agree.