To think that if you’re told a phrase is offensive, you don’t insist on using it?

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Yes, a TAAT. The context is that we explained to mumsnet HQ that the phrase ‘beyond the Pale’ is found eyebrow-raising by many (but not all) Irish people.

The Pale was the name given to an area of Ireland under English rule and those outside that area were considered uncivilised aka ‘beyond the pale’. This is a phrase that is only used with raised eyebrows in Ireland and certainly feels inappropriate, if not offensive, coming from an English person.

Mumsnet use it as part of their racism guidelines as in that they only ban language that is ‘beyond the pale’. Mumsnet accept the origins of the phrase. However, they insist on using this phrase to describe whether something is or is not racist.

Given the context, AIBU in requesting that Mumsnet find another phrase in their racism guidelines?

talkin you can discuss the pale in Ireland. Who said you couldn’t?

it is disgraceful mumsnet allow this comment to stand I mean I know knowledge can be lacking in some English people, but that takes the biscuit!

by @Wazznme

I don't hear it that often, but my husband thought it was something to do with a bucket.

Not after they’ve been told
Sorry but that is not acceptable.
If nobody is allowed to use any phrase that offends anybody, then society is doomed.

Different words mean different things in different times and different places.
We are not all the same.
What makes those who object to one phrase more right than those who use it in other contexts?

As someone who has taught history in schools - you need to very careful about believing everything you are taught.

History has a strong cultural bias - could I gently suggest that in the same way English teaching about Irish history contains bias the reverse may also be true.

Sorry but that is not acceptable.

Well a lot of stuff that is not acceptable is allowed on MN so why should this be any different?

I’m Irish, I studied Irish history, and language and I’m Not in the least offended by ‘beyond the pale’ .
The only thing i’m offended by is eejits claiming that Irish people are actually hurt in some way by that phrase because it makes us all look like a bunch of numpties

so rest assured that no claims to represent you.

Tough one.

It was originally used by the Roman's to designate an are beyond which the enemy held sway. Not especially offensive. A 'pale' was a stake or group of stakes i.e. a fence. Unfortunately, in more recent times it was used to identify the boundary beyond which Jews lived (Russian use) or the boundary beyond which Irish lived (English).

My gut feeling is that most English people have no idea of the Irish connection. I didn't. However, since it was a derogatory term used by the English for the Irish, I can understand why an Irish person finds it offensive when an English person uses it.

I think it’s crass to use language like this in anti racism guidelines and they should change it. As a marketing person, I’d change it. As a human who cares about other people, I’d change it. There are plenty of other phrases that would serve the same purpose.

No, you dont get to decide what is offensive based on very little apart from something you heard once from somebody. My Irish family are always very keen to point out the English are at the root of every single one of their problems though.

Where does this stop though.

As said, I don't like the word cunt. I find it offensive and mysogynistic towards women. Should mumsnet ban the use of it because myself and some others feel this way? Even though plenty of others don't?

Should we start a list of words or phrases we personally find offensive or unwelcoming to a specific group and request mumsnet neither uses them or bans them all?

I thought the origin was to do with palings. Turns out that is the oldest origin. Then there's an Irish and a Russian version which basically allude to the same kind of meaning. Being beyond a certain area. So it's highly likely that the vast majority of British people don't know that Irish people have a different view of it.
It would take too long for anyone to learn all the ins and outs of what's acceptable within different cultures and what's not. So a bit of give and take is required....dare I say a bit of tolerance.

It would take too long for anyone to learn all the ins and outs of what's acceptable within different cultures and what's not. So a bit of give and take is required....dare I say a bit of tolerance.
HEAR HEAR

Difference is the word cunt is not used in MN own guidelines is it?

As said, I don't like the word cunt. I find it offensive and mysogynistic towards women.

And like I said before, cunt doesn’t appear in MN talk guidelines about not using sexist language. If it did, you would have my full support in asking for it to be removed.

I see it set in the wider context of anti-Irish sentiment that seems to me to pervade here, and I intend to challenge.

I think the frustration people here feel is that in Ireland, it is certainly (judging by this thread) felt by many to be perjorative and inextricably linked to the Irish Pale. The same isn’t true in England, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the phrase does not in fact originate in anti-Irish politics or sentiment.

I think it’s an easy one for MNHQ to change to be inclusive, so I agree with you on that.

But insisting on seeing the use of the phrase in England as anti-Irish despite much contrary evidence, and challenging it as such, strikes me as a little strange.

Blimey - this is an offensive term. It's blasphemous and it will offend blind people. We should ban it. Or not.

The English language is riddled with words that could be offensive to someone or another. There needs to be some form of cultural consensus before words or phrases are banned.

As a matter of interest is the phrase still in common usage in Ireland?

It would take too long for anyone to learn all the ins and outs of what's acceptable within different cultures and what's not.

That’s applicable to all words that we no longer use. Some people still use them and we tell them “actually, that’s not old here’s why, please don’t use it here” it happens on MN right now. People post something, people call them on it, they say, “sorry, didn’t realise, i’ll Know for next time”. It’s not hard.

Old =ok

It's used in Northern Ireland with a particular view behind it. If you google "beyond the pale unionist" you'll get the general drift.

I can't think of the right word, but it has a meaning behind it and everyone from Northern Ireland who reads the articles will understand what is meant by the phrase in the Northern Irish context. It has a particular nuance here.

Giantbanger
So is your offence on behalf of people in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?
And actually I find the anti gay, anti abortion, anti Catholic, anti everything views of many Unionists so unpleasant that I disregard their views on many other issues.

The thing is if mumsnet remove it, then they are saying they agree it's offensive and it's meaning is about the Irish when it's not. Which means then they need to ban its usage, as they see it as a racist term. And they need to police the forum accordingly.

They can't change it then let people use a phrase they agree is racist. especially when it's not

Ahhh and I assume the nuance and inference is offensive.

Thanks for that.

The thing is if mumsnet remove it, then they are saying they agree it's offensive and it's meaning is about the Irish when it's not. Which means then they need to ban its usage, as they see it as a racist term. And they need to police the forum accordingly.

I don’t agree - if they were deleting uses of the phrase on the forums, then that would be OTT. But changing it in Talk Guidelines to reflect the fact some people find it problematic doesn’t cross that line for me.